India Post Mortem Thread

[SJS]

Kirsten did one thing right for Indiand, he took the backseat. In a superstar celebrity player culture anything else does not work in this country. This is what was common between Wright and Kirsten which is what accounts for the affection Indian media and fans show for the two. I do not say this to run down their qualities as coaches but to highlight their difference with Chappell.

The issue at stake is beyond that. The performance of the team under a coach and the role of the coach in it for better or worse.

The point I started with making is that it is difficult to asses that in a culture where the coach"s powers are curtailed. The team may still perform well. Teams play the game and coaches have, always, a limited role to play but during certain times when weaknesses first start appearing in a player and in a team that the coach's contribution might be vital.

There are plenty of great teams where we do not remember the coaches. The West Indies juggernaut from mid eighties onwards had anonymous coaches. I can't name then without looking up on google or elsewhere. But when the great team finally disintegrated the performance plummeted.

The great credit given to Buchanan for the Aussie success of the 1990's was forgotten when the team finally broke off in quick succession with the bulk retiring in quick succession without equally great replacements.

So let's appreciate coaches, Kirsten and Wright included but let's remember that the team performances come from the quality of the team.

I had started with the example of Greg only to highlight the limitations a coach faces in India. Not to compare Greg as a coach to those who came before or after him.

While on the subject of coach and a team's success. I think a coach and skipper combination which gels, works well, is on the same page, have come to the side more or less around the same time, are a good recipe for successful leadership, assuming of course that the team"s individuals have potential.

I think Dhoni and Kirsten made a very good team as did Wright and Ganguly. The team to was more settled during their tenures with a solid senior phalanx and a decent lot of talented youngsters standing by.

Fletcher and whosoever takes uo from Dhoni (unless he continues) have a different and more complex problem of team building. Australia is in the midst of that process but they are fortunate with a great first class system and a committed cricket board.

We have question marks on both . . .

 

[cnerd123]

Fletcher didn't do anything as a coach did he?

He didn't encourage players to be fitter and to be more committed in the field. I do remember Kristen being stricter in this regard.

He had vast experience of conditions in England and Australia yet seemingly failed to pass them on to the players, who continued to commit the same mistakes after same mistakes.

His tactics with Dhoni were just plain absurd at times. Didn't go for the win in WI, and the bizarre first hour on Day 5 in Nagpur.

He didn't give guys like Rahane or Rohit a look in to the Test team. Mukund got a few games, and Jadeja debuted right that the end of his tenure. Otherwise it was just the same names failing to perform and consistently getting picked.

Neither Ashwin or Sharma improved much as bowlers under his supervision. Raina became a walking wicket in England.

India were useless in the T20 World Cup as well. Especially that match against South Africa, where instead of trying to defend 121 and go for the win that would get them to the next stage, they were happy to defend 140 odd and win the game but get knocked out. Terrible mindset.

I'll credit him for finding and developing Yadav, sure, but there wasn't much else was there? Really just felt like Fletcher saw all the money on offer, though 'sure, why not?', came on board, and has been intent on just seeing out his contract without controversy and then leaving when his time was up.

 

[Salamuddin]

If Sachin doesn't retire before the Australian series, he should be dropped. He does not deserve any more Test matches. Sehwag should be gone. Gambhir too. Dhoni should be the first. Get rid of Ashin and Sharma as well.

Start fresh with the condition that you can't be a ****ty fielder or be completely out of shape and expect to get a Test cap, regardless of your other skills.

Getting rid of Ashwin is just plain stupid .

He's played what 11 tests and doesn't have too shabby a record. To me Ashwin and Ojha need to be given time to develop - young spinners need that especially.

 

[Manee]

Apologies for not reading the replies of the thread but here is my view on the way forward for India...

In my opinion, the openers have done enough to retain their spot. They both had good innings against a good bowling attack. Sehwag got a few starts against New Zealand and Gambhir was poor against New Zealand and so you can say they are on thin ice but I don't think they deserve to be dropped. Yuvraj lost his place and rightfully so, he has never been consistent enough as a Test batsmen and if Dhoni is not comfortable bowling him (he barely bowled him), there is no question - Yuvraj should not be in the Test squad! Same goes for Tendulkar - he's been poor for too long now - he should be dropped or encouraged to retire ASAP.

Kohli and Dhoni were both good against New Zealand and both got some runs late in the series against England. No reason for either to be dropped, imo. Kohli especially is young and will improve his consistency. Pujara, of course, is gold and is the find of the series. Jadeja came in to replace Yuvraj and I am optimistic that he can do well. He averages 52 with the bat in FC cricket and 27 with the ball and those averages look set only to improve. Ashwin is in good form with the bat, but they are not competing with each other - he averages 46 in Test cricket with the bat but with a FC average of 38 - the Test batting will fall away soon, I am sure of it. He can be a very good number eight though. If Jadeja doesn't perform well, I think we have a number of batsmen who we trial and error in this transition period. We've just got to make sure we learn from mistakes like Raina and Yuvraj in the format.

On to the bowling. Ashwin destroyed New Zealand but was a key reason we lost against England. He took 6 fewer wickets than Ojha at a far worse average. Ashwin's bowling should be under the microscope as it seems he may have a problem taking wickets against top tier batsmen. With Jadeja around the scene at 7, if Jadeja starts taking wickets - then maybe he could slot down to eight and displace Ashwin. I think Jadeja can play at eight and bowl more, I don't think Ashwin can play at seven. However, Ashwin still has a series or two more to prove himself because he was a machine against New Zealand.

Zaheer Khan and Ishant Sharma should be gone unfortunately. They played a big part in getting to number one but Ishant needs time domestically and Zaheer is not consistent enough to justify his fitness concerns. But we do have a lot of promising bowlers waiting in the wings. Yadav, Awana, Pankaj Singh, Shami Ahmed are all proven performers who can touch 140kph (so they're not slow-medium pacers who will struggle to take wickets internationally). Shami is young but he has performed a few times now for India A which should count for a lot, Yadav has Test success and Awana/Pankaj have long and successful First Class careers and are both in good form (though Pankaj is injured atm).

There are a few pace bowlers who may also break through soon. Ishwar Pandey bowls around 128-135kph and has had a good year. Mohit Sharma reportedly bowls at 140kph and has had a good season and B Kumar looks an excellent prospect as an all rounder. He is consistent domestically with the ball, I've seen him bowl around 135kph in the IPL and averages 30.79 in First Class cricket with the bat.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

In a way though with Fletcher does anybody know how much say/control he actually has with anything. I think he is a decent coach, look at how he dragged England up from nothing to being a good side again with the help of a GREAT relationship with his captains Hussain and Vaughan. Yes it went a bit sour at the end but he had probably been in the job too long then and it had all gone stale.

I think if he had the same role now for India as he did when he took the England job of identifying young talent and nurturing it as the old guard hadn't worked/needed replacing then he is an ideal man for that. I don't think that will happen though so he may have to leave and after struggling to get another big job now go back to coaching in county cricket.

I just hope he doesn't end up the fall guy for what has happened of late and that India do revamp the team and not have the attitude that a change of coach will mean everything will be alright.

 

[Salamuddin]

Also, I really don't understand the point of calling for Fletcher's head when he's had 18 months trying to stoke the embers of a dying fire.

The time to call for Fletcher's head is after 18 months-2 years of him having his own players to work with and install the values he holds. Dropping Zaheer was the first step towards sorting out the poor team culture in the Indian dressing room.

Sorry but this is codswallop.

Fletcher is getting paid more than $250,000 per year. He's had 18 months in the job not 2 or 3 months. He's gotta take some of the responsibility for the results.

The reprts are that Fletcher actually did not want an input in team selection when negotiating his contract. If that is true, then he can't really complain he wasn't given the ideal team. He signed on the dotted line - he knew what he was signing up for.

 

[marc71178]

And if he's given a **** team, how is it his fault they're **** on the field?

 

[smash84]

And if he's given a **** team, how is it his fault they're **** on the field?

because he is paid quarter of a million dollars to turn **** into gold which is what he signed on. THAT HE WILL TURN **** INTO GOLD.

 

[Furball]

Sorry but this is codswallop.

Fletcher is getting paid more than $250,000 per year. He's had 18 months in the job not 2 or 3 months. He's gotta take some of the responsibility for the results.

The reprts are that Fletcher actually did not want an input in team selection when negotiating his contract. If that is true, then he can't really complain he wasn't given the ideal team. He signed on the dotted line - he knew what he was signing up for.

2 years into the job, Fletcher's team got trounced 4-1 at home by Australia.

4 years later, when virtually the entire XI was made up of players identified and picked by Fletcher, England won the Ashes for the first time in 18 years.

There's no point picking Fletcher (or anyone for that matter) if you're not prepared to give him time to evaluate the setup, ditch the players that don't fit into whatever picture Fletcher has of how he wants his team to look and mould the players into a unit. Particularly when because of the longevity of Dravid, Tendulkar and Laxman, as well as India's complete inability for 3 years to replace Ganguly, there's no-one with a few years' experience you can build the middle order around.

 

[Cevno]

The thing is though Fletcher has added zilch to the team. When the farce on the 4th day morning was being played out, him and Dhoni were laughing at something together.

If he can't add that basic strategy, then what the hell is he there for ? He also has his own team ? What the hell is his bowling coach doing ? Who has he even shown signs of imrpoving ? Why didn't he get a spin bowling coach too, to work with Ashwin/Ojha ? Mental conditioner like kirsten did maybe, to work on how the shoulders drop in recent times too soon due to lack of confidence.

Kirsten showed visible improvement in 18 months. Fletcher has shown Zilch.

Having said that, don't think you can blame him for the decline as it has been due to some players getting old and transition among other things, but what has he added is the question.

 

[centurymaker]

Looks like this will be the team
for the 1st tests against Aus

Gambhir
Sehwag
Pujara
Tendulkar
Kohli
Dhoni (c)
Jadeja
Ashwin
Ojha
Ishant
Yadav


yup, no changes.

 

[centurymaker]

Former cricketers are coming out in support of Dhoni. They are saying that he should be retained as he is the only one who can take India back to the top etc. So I expect him to be given at least another series especially considering that BCCI are never in favour of sacking him as he is iconic figure and therefore a money machine for BCCI.

The guy's fallen considerably overall in the last few yrs. His captaincy and leadership have been detrimental to the team. Not only has he failed to spark life into the team as a leader, he has also continued to make tactical and selection bluders. While I still admire his fighting abilities in face of adversity with the bat, I don't think, overall, he deserves to be in the side after the horror results in the past 18 months.

It is also becoming quite evident that Tendulkar will probably feature in the Aus series as well, but what is unclear is whether he will announce his retirement before it or whetehr he will reasses his future after the series in hope of further prolonging the agony perhaps.
Having said that, If tendulkar is ever going to score runs, it is against Aus despite all his recent struggles. Personally speaking I can't see him doing well against them either, given his disordered footwork and late reactions. If Siddle, Pattingson bowl quick, he will be found out yet again.

198 tests at least ffs

when are India playing after that? I hope there is long long break so that he makes aus series his last

 

[Scaly piscine]

Can't see Fletcher working with India because basically he's obsessed with seamers having pace.

So out of over a billion people he's basically limiting himself to 3 seam bowlers. Aaron, Yadav and Sharma (assuming astronomic alignment, a favourable heavy wind and Harmison sacrificing a goat)

 

[centurymaker]

Can't see Fletcher working with India because basically he's obsessed with seamers having pace.

So out of over a billion people he's basically limiting himself to 3 seam bowlers. Aaron, Yadav and Sharma (assuming astronomic alignment, a favourable heavy wind and Harmison sacrificing a goat)

so he might've had a hand in medium pacer zaheer's axing?

 

[centurymaker]

for an indian cricketer or in the eyes of the indian public an ODI series against Pakistan is as big as a test series against Aus, so I hope it is 194 not 198

# always hope

 

[Scaly piscine]

so he might've had a hand in medium pacer zaheer's axing?

I would think so, the absence of Praveen certainly his hallmarks on it.

 

[Cevno]

Coach Duncan Fletcher of little help, some players tell BCCI - The Times of India

 

[silentstriker]

Well the knives are out....

 

[Salamuddin]

And if he's given a **** team, how is it his fault they're **** on the field?

I didn't say Fletcher was responsible for bad selections.

I said:
1) He didn't want to have an input in team selection, if the reports are true, so he can't then use that as an excuse. You had to work with what you were given - if that's a problem why sign up for it ?
Did he sign up because of the money and who gives a crap about results ?
Begs the question why the BCCI even hired hm in that case but that's anoither story.
2) He is getting paid $250,000 per year and has been in the job for 18 months - its natural that an employer is gonna want to see some results after that

 

[Salamuddin]

2 years into the job, Fletcher's team got trounced 4-1 at home by Australia.

4 years later, when virtually the entire XI was made up of players identified and picked by Fletcher, England won the Ashes for the first time in 18 years.

There's no point picking Fletcher (or anyone for that matter) if you're not prepared to give him time to evaluate the setup, ditch the players that don't fit into whatever picture Fletcher has of how he wants his team to look and mould the players into a unit. Particularly when because of the longevity of Dravid, Tendulkar and Laxman, as well as India's complete inability for 3 years to replace Ganguly, there's no-one with a few years' experience you can build the middle order around.

He lost 4-1 to one of the best cricket teams of all time. It wouldn't have mattered whether he had picked his team or the ECB had picked it for him.


WIth all due respect, the teams India have been losing to are nowhere in the same league. England are a decent side at best but have been massively overhyped by their fans.

India have many problems other than Fletcher but to give him a clean record over India's results over the last 18 months is just plain ridiculous.

Tactically they've been poor. Their fitness is atrocious is and their fielding is pretty bad. Can Fletcher point to any player in the last 18 months and say he has improved under my watch ?

He's got to take some of the responsibility here.