Is Steyn as deadly as Lillee?

[Leg Cutter]

Thompson looks seriously quick...i would guess around late 140s touching 150k at times.

Dude how could you measure the speed at that time??

 

[andyc]

Little DK Lillee anecdote.

Way back in 1991 I was 19 years old. There was a meatmarket of a pub in the posh suburb of Brighton, in Melbourne, Australia called "Jake's". Pretty feral place - dark corners, pool tables, University crowd, sawdust on the floor (presumably to soak up the vomit).

Anyway, it was our regular Saturday night.

One time I was waiting my turn at the bar and this old bloke (compared with most everyone else there) was in front of me with a drink card. He turns around and I'm greeted by DK's mustache and white shirt (2 buttons undone, hairy chest). There was no doubt who it was and I was completely starstruck.

An hour later I am dominating on one of the pool tables, doubles where you attach yourself to the hottest (and drunkest) girl you can find and play as double's partners. I'm sure I'm a good thing with a tall brunette (of questionable age) and DK wanders (with a couple babes in tow) and has a word to the poolmaster.

He jumps the queue and introduces himself to me and my pool-but-hopefully-shag partner as our next opponent. Proceeds to beat us by six balls and offers to buy my woulda-shoulda-coulda partner a drink.

I didn't see her for the remainder of the night until she and (and I am not exaggerating) three other nubile young "women" tumble into a taxi with DK while I'm consoling myself with a kebab (extra meat, extra chilli).

The scariest thing is that I am 99.94% sure that none of these girls even knew who he was.


So, based on my humble opinion, Lillee is deadlier than Steyn until proven otherwise.


Looking back, happy to have my lunch cut by the great man. He's a ****ing legend.


PS: I never saw him bowl at his best so cannot compare with Steyn (who is a superstar and the best I've seen since Ambrose/Akram in terms of scaring batters out).

WAFG.

Also, does anyone have clips of Steyn's bowling from the most recent series vs. India? Specifically, the ball to Pujara? Sounds like an absolute peach.

Edit: Never mind, found it. About 2:48 in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BF4t0-bQNbE&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

 

[Burgey]

Thompson looks seriously quick...i would guess around late 140s touching 150k at times.

If you get a chance to see Cricket in the 70s-The Chappell Era, it's very interesting to hear what the likes of Lloyd and Richards said of him.

They weren't just quick, they were mean. No helmets back then mind, and they made certain batsmen were well aware their heads weren't protected.

 

[M0rphin3]

Little DK Lillee anecdote.

Way back in 1991 I was 19 years old. There was a meatmarket of a pub in the posh suburb of Brighton, in Melbourne, Australia called "Jake's". Pretty feral place - dark corners, pool tables, University crowd, sawdust on the floor (presumably to soak up the vomit).

Anyway, it was our regular Saturday night.

One time I was waiting my turn at the bar and this old bloke (compared with most everyone else there) was in front of me with a drink card. He turns around and I'm greeted by DK's mustache and white shirt (2 buttons undone, hairy chest). There was no doubt who it was and I was completely starstruck.

An hour later I am dominating on one of the pool tables, doubles where you attach yourself to the hottest (and drunkest) girl you can find and play as double's partners. I'm sure I'm a good thing with a tall brunette (of questionable age) and DK wanders (with a couple babes in tow) and has a word to the poolmaster.

He jumps the queue and introduces himself to me and my pool-but-hopefully-shag partner as our next opponent. Proceeds to beat us by six balls and offers to buy my woulda-shoulda-coulda partner a drink.

I didn't see her for the remainder of the night until she and (and I am not exaggerating) three other nubile young "women" tumble into a taxi with DK while I'm consoling myself with a kebab (extra meat, extra chilli).

The scariest thing is that I am 99.94% sure that none of these girls even knew who he was.


So, based on my humble opinion, Lillee is deadlier than Steyn until proven otherwise.


Looking back, happy to have my lunch cut by the great man. He's a ****ing legend.


PS: I never saw him bowl at his best so cannot compare with Steyn (who is a superstar and the best I've seen since Ambrose/Akram in terms of scaring batters out).

WAFG DK

 

[smash84]

If you get a chance to see Cricket in the 70s-The Chappell Era, it's very interesting to hear what the likes of Lloyd and Richards said of him.

They weren't just quick, they were mean. No helmets back then mind, and they made certain batsmen were well aware their heads weren't protected.

Man I want cricket like that back.......a real man's game.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

If a SC batsman scored 10k runs in test at 55 avg but scored 90% runs in ind,sl,pak,bang and failed in 4 to 5 tests outside SC.....will he be seen as great?

 

[Hit Wicket]

If a SC batsman scored 10k runs in test at 55 avg but scored 90% runs in ind,sl,pak,bang and failed in 4 to 5 tests outside SC.....will he be seen as great?

He'll be called a Flat Track Bully, Home Track Bully, and if nothing worked a Subcontinent Track Bully. His ability to play swing would be questioned, his ability to play on hard and bouncy surfaces would be questioned. And God forbid, if he had willingly sat out of some series outside the subcontinent he would also be called a chicken too scared to face fast bowling.

Steyn has been given negative points because he does not have enough competition FFS, what chance does a batsman you described above stand?

 

[Burgey]

He'll be called a Flat Track Bully, Home Track Bully, and if nothing worked a Subcontinent Track Bully. His ability to play swing would be questioned, his ability to play on hard and bouncy surfaces would be questioned. And God forbid, if he had willingly sat out of some series outside the subcontinent he would also be called a chicken too scared to face fast bowling.

Steyn has been given negative points because he does not have enough competition FFS, what chance does a batsman you described above stand?

No he wouldn't, not by everyone. Many would say you can't judge him on 3 or 4 tests.

 

[Top_Cat]

If a SC batsman scored 10k runs in test at 55 avg but scored 90% runs in ind,sl,pak,bang and failed in 4 to 5 tests outside SC.....will he be seen as great?

It's a fair question but, for mine, I think it's fairly simple why that would just be different and Lillee is still considered a great whereas a batsman would garner a less sympathetic response;

1) Batsmen are **** ****s.
2) Times are different. When Lillee played, Australia weren't doing much touring other than going to England. So it was fairly easy to miss out on sub-continental tours. Even as recently as 1991, India came here and Aus didn't play them in Tests for another 6 years in a one-off series and India didn't come back here until 2000. Now, if Lillee had only played 4 Tests on the sub-continent, he'd have to dodge a lot more tours and would (probably) be rightly pillored for it. Mind you, these days he'd be more likely to have played there on A tours
3) It probably depends on how many blokes who played against him rated him. Lillee, despite some holes in his record, is considered by some of the best players the game has seen, to be the best they faced. Not "Awww, he's good." but "Lillee was the best bowler I faced". That's some pretty strong and very influential endorsements.
4) Lillee certainly played on enough extremely flat decks to put to rest the idea that he needed seaming conditions to be effective. A bloke batting mostly in India or Pakistan, there's still doubt about how well they'd do on decks away from home because spicy decks there are still way more rare than flat decks in Australia were even back then.

In fact, some of the asterisks next to sub-continental players' records are starting to be applied to Aussie players too as people are starting to question their cricket on tougher pitches. This'll likely be exacerbated if someone like Mick Clarke goes to India and dominates after his fairly wretched summer here. So questions get asked on both sides, even by home media.

 

[marc71178]

If a SC batsman scored 10k runs in test at 55 avg but scored 90% runs in ind,sl,pak,bang and failed in 4 to 5 tests outside SC.....will he be seen as great?

I don't see how 1000 runs in 4 to 5 tests would be a failure but nice attempt at trolling.

 

[Hit Wicket]

I don't see how 1000 runs in 4 to 5 tests would be a failure but nice attempt at trolling.

You look to be the person who is trolling here missing the gist of the post and concentrating on hypothetical specifics. If I change that 90% to 98.3% would that suit you more, for that is the percentage of wickets Lillee got in Australia, England, and New Zealand read as India, Pakistan, and Sri Lanka for the hypothetical batsman.

 

[Ikki]

The idea that Lillee would struggle against Sri Lanka is like saying Steyn would struggle against Bangladesh if he has 1 test against them at the end of his career and doesn't do well. SL were the minnows of the time; had he played them more he would have a better record. There's not much to really doubt that. Likewise many of Lillee's contemporaries didn't have problems in India either who weren't a great team either. Simply put, Pakistan was the team from those that had a very good side and had tough home conditions where the bowling averages were notoriously high (not in SL or India). But he only played there for 4 innings and IIRC there were murmurs also about the umpiring.

However, if a player from SC scored in that manner during the 90s and 00s he'd essentially have forgone batting against 3 of the best bowling attacks of his time (Aus, SA and WI). Context is important here. It's why no one from the time hesitates to call him the best ever (including his bowling rivals themselves). Those tests meant jack.

 

[smash84]

The idea that Lillee would struggle against Sri Lanka is like saying Steyn would struggle against Bangladesh if he has 1 test against them at the end of his career and doesn't do well. SL were the minnows of the time; had he played them more he would have a better record. There's not much to really doubt that. Likewise many of Lillee's contemporaries didn't have problems in India either who weren't a great team either. Simply put, Pakistan was the team from those that had a very good side and had tough home conditions where the bowling averages were notoriously high (not in SL or India). But he only played there for 4 innings and IIRC there were murmurs also about the umpiring.

However, if a player from SC scored in that manner during the 90s and 00s he'd essentially have forgone bowling to at 3 of the best bowling attacks of his time (Aus, SA and WI). Context is important here. It's why no one from the time hesitates to call him the best ever (including his bowling rivals themselves). Those tests meant jack.

I don't know about others Imran Khan (also Richard Hadlee) considers Lillee as the best ever fast bowler that he saw. Barring his playing up of Sami (and maybe a few other blunders) he is generally a good a very good judge of the abilities of fast bowlers. Maybe it also had to do with the fact that Imran learned his out swinger and leg cutter from Lillee but he rates Lillee as the best and Imran was one of the finest flat deck bowlers ever.

 

[bagapath]

in his autobiography, lillee actually sounds quite happy about his contribution in the SL test. am sure getting rid of dias and wettimuny, SL's best batters, was quite useful from the aussie perspective. i am trying to distract you from the 35+ bowling average, which actually means nothing considering we are looking at a solitary test, and look at lillee's contribution in the context of the game. i dont think DK was crying at the end of the test.

 

[stephen]

Really though, if you saw McGrath in a test take figures of 2/67 and 1/40 when Warne took a 5fer in the first innings and MacGill take a 5fer in the second, you wouldn't think twice about questioning McGrath's ability. That's what Lillee's record in Sri Lanka is. Questioning him based on it is ridiculous.

 

[Spark]

Really though, if you saw McGrath in a test take figures of 2/67 and 1/40 when Warne took a 5fer in the first innings and MacGill take a 5fer in the second, you wouldn't think twice about questioning McGrath's ability. That's what Lillee's record in Sri Lanka is. Questioning him based on it is ridiculous.

Um... is that what you meant?

 

[Walter]

Not sure if I read it on here or another site, but someone brought up the fair-enough question about how Steyn would handle a dip in form or a bad period. He's already done that. AB, Amla and Steyn were brought in in 2005 against England; both Amla and Steyn were dropped after that, both returning fairly strongly.

 

[archie mac]

You look to be the person who is trolling here missing the gist of the post and concentrating on hypothetical specifics. If I change that 90% to 98.3% would that suit you more, for that is the percentage of wickets Lillee got in Australia, England, and New Zealand read as India, Pakistan, and Sri Lanka for the hypothetical batsman.

When I saw this post I thought of Z. Abbas, he looked a bit nervous in Aust against real pace, but his record in England was quite good. After watching him play a quality innings I changed my mind.

The point of this post?

I think it fair enough to rate the players you have watched and wonder if they would have been any good outside their comfort zone, still a player who is good enough to score 10000 runs is a class act in anyones book

 

[marc71178]

Not sure if I read it on here or another site, but someone brought up the fair-enough question about how Steyn would handle a dip in form or a bad period. He's already done that. AB, Amla and Steyn were brought in in 2005 against England; both Amla and Steyn were dropped after that, both returning fairly strongly.

Not sure how much of that can be classed a dip in form and how much of it is not being ready to be honest.

 

[Furball]

If a SC batsman scored 10k runs in test at 55 avg but scored 90% runs in ind,sl,pak,bang and failed in 4 to 5 tests outside SC.....will he be seen as great?

Yes, I'd consider Jayawardene a great.