How do you solve a problem like Jesse Ryder?

[BeeGee]

Twelve months ago he looked like he'd lost a bit of weight but having seen him recently it looks as if he's gained it all back.

Yeah, watching him in the Aus series I was surprised by how much weight he had put on.

He needs to show that he can stay fit before he is considered for NZ again.

AWTA.

Maintaining your fitness is a pretty basic part of being a professional cricketer. Shows a real lack of commitment to the profession he's chosen.

 

[SteveNZ]

Think they're being a bit harsh on him here. A calf tear, you can't pin that on lack of fitness. You can't fix or strengthen it via exercise (if it was a grade 3 tear, he'd need surgery) so it stands to reason that it wasn't caused by exercise/lack of. It's a **** injury.

That said, he does himself no favours being in the shape he is. Every time he does anything other than score lots of runs, questions will be asked. It's a tough situation and arbitrarily dropping him because he's unfit would only work if the team's results improved without him. If they turf him and NZ aren't competitive in their next few series', a few runs and people will be baying for him to be recalled. So you'd have an smug and unfit bloke coming back into the team. I dunno if anyone has a strong solution for situations like this.

Problem is you can pin it on fitness/general health. The amount of weight he's carrying around that the calves are having to bear is obviously causing issues. Plus the guy drinks alcohol like the last drop is about to be poured, which is certainly not the solution to healing injuries.

I don't think worrying about him being smug is something to consider. If he's dropped, he either decides it's something he really misses and wants to work for, or he goes the other way and takes the lazy route. Either way, it creates an ultimatium.

 

[Top_Cat]

Problem is you can pin it on fitness/general health. The amount of weight he's carrying around that the calves are having to bear is obviously causing issues.

Doubt it. It's hard to tear a calf muscle mainly because, aside from being a really dense area of muscle, you can't put it through the range of motion you can other muscles like a hammie.

Bear in mind, I'm not excusing any of his other fitness issues at all. Just saying, a calf injury can happen to anyone, fit or not.

Plus the guy drinks alcohol like the last drop is about to be poured, which is certainly not the solution to healing injuries.

Yeah, this much is true.

I don't think worrying about him being smug is something to consider. If he's dropped, he either decides it's something he really misses and wants to work for, or he goes the other way and takes the lazy route. Either way, it creates an ultimatium.

Yeah it's a **** situation for the NZ heirarchy to deal with and not an easy fix. South Australia had their own Ryder for years in Mark Cosgrove. Dropping him didn't solve the problem, berating him about his fitness publicly and privately certainly didn't and eventually SA just didn't renew his contract, he moved to Tassie, topped the run-scorers and played in a Shield-winning side. If there's one ace NZ cricket have it's that Ryder can't just move.

The reasoning given by SACA was nonsense, though, being that he didn't live up to his potential. Because he was potentially a gun, SA made the mistake of picking the side based on what Cosgrove could potentially do when, with all his flaws and inconsistencies, he was still one of the top 6 batters in the state. So when they got jack of it and dropped him, all he did was bide his time until the new guys inevitably failed, the press got behind his grade form and came back the same player, scored a few runs then slipped back into middling play. He had no incentive to improve because there was no selection pressure. That and the team always had to deal with the spectre of 'when is Cossie coming back?'. The problem was the inevitability of it.

Now, if NZ selectors have the will to drop him, tell him he's not in contention until he meets fitness/attitude standards and manage to resist the eventual press storm which will happen if the team has a run of losses, then maybe. The biggest mistake SA selectors made was always being on the lookout for the slightest reason to pick him when the team was struggling and telling the press so. Take away the inevitability of his re-selection and it's probably a better outcome for NZ cricket; the current team is backed as the combination of choice and Ryder gets the message that he's out of team planning until he forces his way back into them. Like you said, it gives a much clearer direction for the team as a whole.

 

[Flem274*]

If there's one ace NZ cricket have it's that Ryder can't just move.

He tried

The good thing for Wright is someone has to miss out of the twelve man squad who went to Hobart, because Vettori will come in for someone. If we drop Ryder for Vettori and retain the four seamers, all of who deserve to stay in, Wright can actually justify that side as being the best we have. There's been a lot of debate about what to do lately with this selection conundrum, but if Ryder is deemed too unfit then it solves itself nicely.

 

[Woodster]

Yes I don't think it's going to be a case of just leaving him out for a series or two to teach him a lesson, he must be left out indefinitely until he shows some appetite (so to speak) for getting fit. He has to work hard to get back into the side, just hope if they do replace him then the incoming player gets some early runs on the board.

 

[Furball]

Fantastic choice of words.

 

[Flem274*]

Yes I don't think it's going to be a case of just leaving him out for a series or two to teach him a lesson, he must be left out indefinitely until he shows some appetite (so to speak) for getting fit. He has to work hard to get back into the side, just hope if they do replace him then the incoming player gets some early runs on the board.

McCullum
Guptill
Williamson
Taylor
Brownlie
Vettori
Keeper and the bowlers

Ryder will have a hard time forcing his way back in unless he converts to opening or disaster strikes the middle order. Vettori and Taylor will never be dropped unless they're dire for a long time, Williamson will be stuck with over the long term and Brownlie has a lot of credit in the bank from Australia.

Ryder is quite capable of forcing his way back, but it will take him a bit of time.

 

[Woodster]

McCullum
Guptill
Williamson
Taylor
Brownlie
Vettori
Keeper and the bowlers

Ryder will have a hard time forcing his way back in unless he converts to opening or disaster strikes the middle order. Vettori and Taylor will never be dropped unless they're dire for a long time, Williamson will be stuck with over the long term and Brownlie has a lot of credit in the bank from Australia.

Ryder is quite capable of forcing his way back, but it will take him a bit of time.

When I look at that line-up though there is always the temptation to drop Vettori further down to make way for a better batsman in Ryder, imo, should he improve his fitness condition and prove a bit of form.

 

[Flem274*]

When I look at that line-up though there is always the temptation to drop Vettori further down to make way for a better batsman in Ryder, imo, should he improve his fitness condition and prove a bit of form.

Yeah I remember from a previous debate you and I have very different views of Vettori's prowess up the order.

I think he's going to be fine at number six if he gets an opportunity. Bowlers know he is one of the main men now so it's not as though he is being hidden down the order. They take him just as seriously at eight as they would at six, and he's been fine.

If I could choose one current NZ batsman to bat for my life, I would choose Vettori.

 

[Days of Grace]

That lineup will only work if your keeper is capable of scoring centuries and I'm not sold on Young yet.

 

[Flem274*]

That's why I said "keeper" and not Young.

I'm not sure what's happening with that position tbh. I'd rather have an underpar keeper batsman who can catch really well and room for five bowlers than Vettori at seven, a keeper and just three quicks.

 

[Woodster]

Yeah I remember from a previous debate you and I have very different views of Vettori's prowess up the order.

I think he's going to be fine at number six if he gets an opportunity. Bowlers know he is one of the main men now so it's not as though he is being hidden down the order. They take him just as seriously at eight as they would at six, and he's been fine.

If I could choose one current NZ batsman to bat for my life, I would choose Vettori.

Yes you're right mate, we do have varying views on Vettori's skills up the order, but in this case that's not my main point, it's just if they wanted to find room for a fit Ryder, I'd suggest moving Vettori down the order would be the easiest option. But if Vettori scores big in that position when he gets a chance it would obviously make it difficult for the selectors.....but he won't.

 

[Hurricane]

^At Napier against Zimbos he might.

 

[Athlai]

You're right Hurricane, Franklin should come in for Ryder.

 

[Hurricane]

You're right Hurricane, Franklin should come in for Ryder.

Missing a

 

[Howsie]

He had no incentive to improve because there was no selection pressure.

The story of New Zealand cricket.

 

[Flem274*]

Yes you're right mate, we do have varying views on Vettori's skills up the order, but in this case that's not my main point, it's just if they wanted to find room for a fit Ryder, I'd suggest moving Vettori down the order would be the easiest option. But if Vettori scores big in that position when he gets a chance it would obviously make it difficult for the selectors.....but he won't.

But he did

Since 2009, Vettori has played six tests (9 innings) at number six for 387 @ 43 with a hundred and two fifties.

 

[KiWiNiNjA]

But he did

Since 2009, Vettori has played six tests (9 innings) at number six for 387 @ 43 with a hundred and two fifties.

SSS

z

 

[Prince EWS]

The trouble is, even with Brownlie's emergence, he's still one of the best three or four NZ bats.

Because NZ's need is greater he's given a lot more latitude than his fellow pie-enthusiast Sammy Patel, who Flower basically told to eff off and get fit(ter).

So, in conclusion, I dunno.

It's interesting though because he's scored all his Test runs against India on roads and, IIRC, needed runners (now outlawed) for a lot of the time while making those runs.

I think that, even ignoring his weight issues, if New Zealand are going to play four specialist bowlers and Vettori (and they now actually have four specialist bowlers worth playing, so it's a fair enough call) and they aren't going to move a middle order batsman up to open, then Ryder misses out. If four seamers play then Vettori bats 6; Taylor bats 4 regardless; Brownlie definitely can't be dropped at the moment and he's rarely batted above 4 even domestically IIRC so he slots in at 5; which lives Williamson and Ryder fighting it out for #3. Ryder's done more than Williamson in his Test career so far, but not by much at all, and Williamson is IMO far more technically and temperamentally suited to batting #3 than Ryder. Weight and fitness issues aside, there's a case for leaving him out anyway.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

It's interesting though because he's scored all his Test runs against India on roads and, IIRC, needed runners (now outlawed) for a lot of the time while making those runs.

I think that, even ignoring his weight issues, if New Zealand are going to play four specialist bowlers and Vettori (and they now actually have four specialist bowlers worth playing, so it's a fair enough call) and they aren't going to move a middle order batsman up to open, then Ryder misses out. If four seamers play then Vettori bats 6; Taylor bats 4 regardless; Brownlie definitely can't be dropped at the moment and he's rarely batted above 4 even domestically IIRC so he slots in at 5; which lives Williamson and Ryder fighting it out for #3. Ryder's done more than Williamson in his Test career so far, but not by much at all, and Williamson is IMO far more technically and temperamentally suited to batting #3 than Ryder. Weight and fitness issues aside, there's a case for leaving him out anyway.

Yeah, AWTA.