County Championship- Where are they from?

[stumpski]

Hick was a member of Zimbabwe's World Cup squad of 1983 and he also toured with them two years later so he made his switch in allegiance fairly late, in that he was already a professional cricketer. Of course if he'd stayed put, he'd have been an automatic choice for Zimbabwe from 1992 to, I would guess, around 2003.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Hick was a member of Zimbabwe's World Cup squad of 1983 and he also toured with them two years later so he made his switch in allegiance fairly late, in that he was already a professional cricketer. Of course if he'd stayed put, he'd have been an automatic choice for Zimbabwe from 1992 to, I would guess, around 2003.

Yeah, I meant not sure on the British heritage front. As with a lot of southern Africans I suspect if you go back far enough there are some British roots ("Hick" sounds anglophone), but as for parents/grandparents I don't know. He def came over in early adulthood tho, yes.

 

[stumpski]

Pretty sure he had to serve a ten-year qualification period for England (New Zealand offered him four), which would suggest that he had no British relatives, or close relatives. That's the maximum I'd have thought.

Although he played for England in 1991, so it may be that it was reduced.

 

[The Masterplan]

Getting a bit like the Premier League..

 

[Goughy]

I agree with your implicit point, which is that Sussex players have received a very raw deal over the years when it comes to being picked for England.

That is possibly a fair point. It wouldnt be the first County to get short shrift.

That makes by my count in effect 13 local players which isn't so bad.

Isnt it? Pulling all players with any local connections and totalling 13 doesnt seem a large number on which to base an entire FC team.

I dont really see what the accident of birth means - its where the cricketing upbringing is that counts - as I mentioned earlier even the mighty Lord Hawke wasn't born in Yorkshire

If you cant see the relevance then that is up to you. There are examples for all counties of players coming in and out and of moving. However, the exceptions are not large enough to change the overall trends.

Most people are born and schooled in the same place (obviously not all, but most). Given Sussex (sorry to use it as an example again) has a population of 1.5 million and certainly well over a mllion people will have been born there, then it is a fair question to ask "Where are the Sussex born cricketers?"

As much as so and so may come from somewhere else (which misses the point) it doesnt say why certain counties are not producing players from their main demographics (ie people born in the county).

 

[zaremba]

Pretty sure he had to serve a ten-year qualification period for England (New Zealand offered him four), which would suggest that he had no British relatives, or close relatives. That's the maximum I'd have thought.

Although he played for England in 1991, so it may be that it was reduced.

Cricinfo had a video clip of a news feature on him (it may still be on the website) from 1991 just before he began playing for England.

It said that he'd had a 7-year qualification period and I remember this being the case.

They had an interview with him, the uncanny thing about which was seeing, with the perspective of hindsight, how self-doubting and negative Hick was.

 

[Goughy]

Pretty sure he had to serve a ten-year qualification period for England (New Zealand offered him four), which would suggest that he had no British relatives, or close relatives. That's the maximum I'd have thought.

Although he played for England in 1991, so it may be that it was reduced.

It was 7 years and he is of British parentage (IIRC).

The qualification rule was different then. Self imposed by England and now relaxed.

 

[zaremba]

Pulling all players with any local connections and totalling 13 doesnt seem a large number on which to base an entire FC team.

"Any local connections" is a bit of a distortion. In any case, 13 local players in one county squad really isn't bad.

And for what it's worth the imports tend to be long-termers - eg Adams, Goodwin, Mushtaq.

If you cant see the relevance then that is up to you. There are examples for all counties of players coming in and out and of moving. However, the exceptions are not large enough to change the overall trends.

Most people are born and schooled in the same place (obviously not all, but most). Given Sussex (sorry to use it as an example again) has a population of 1.5 million and certainly well over a mllion people will have been born there, then it is a fair question to ask "Where are the Sussex born cricketers?"

As much as so and so may come from somewhere else (which misses the point) it doesnt say why certain counties are not producig players from their main demographics (ie people born in the county).

Birthplace is, to a large extent, an irrelevant accident. You say that "most people are born and schooled in the same place" but the example of Sussex is, I imagine, pretty representative: for every 9 locals born in the county, there'll be about 4 who weren't.

In my family, my brothers and sisters and I were born in a total of (I think) 4 different counties. Fortunately, I was born in Sussex!

It may also be that the population of a places like Sussex is boosted by an influx of older people. I imagine that more people die in Sussex than are born there. A fair number of people live in cities when in their childbearing years, before moving out to the country in later life. That's certainly my plan in life, as a result of which my daughter was born in London.

 

[BoyBrumby]

It was 7 years and he is of British parentage (IIRC).

The qualification rule was different then. Self imposed by England and now relaxed.

Not sure about that. If it was it'd been tightened up between D'Oliveira's & Hick's qualifications.

Dolly (of Cape Malay extraction with no British blood at all) arrived in England in 1960 & was in our test side by '66.

"Any local connections" is a bit of a distortion. In any case, 13 local players in one county squad really isn't bad.

And for what it's worth the imports tend to be long-termers - eg Adams, Goodwin, Mushtaq.



Birthplace is, to a large extent, an irrelevant accident. You say that "most people are born and schooled in the same place" but the example of Sussex is, I imagine, pretty representative: for every 9 locals born in the county, there'll be about 4 who weren't.

In my family, my brothers and sisters and I were born in a total of (I think) 4 different counties. Fortunately, I was born in Sussex!

It may also be that the population of a places like Sussex is boosted by an influx of older people. I imagine that more people die in Sussex than are born there. A fair number of people live in cities when in their childbearing years, before moving out to the country in later life. That's certainly my plan in life, as a result of which my daughter was born in London.

Amongst certain other high-profile communities who flock to live on your part of the south coast....

 

[Goughy]

Not sure about that.

Not sure about what? Hicks qualification period?

He served a 7 year qualification period. Rules can and do change and he was shafted.

 

[zaremba]

I know this is off topic in a fairly massive way, but does anyone else think that Lee Westwood looks as though he has Downs Syndrome?

 

[BoyBrumby]

Not sure about what? Hicks qualification period?

He served a 7 year qualification period. Rules can and do change and he was shafted.

Not sure he has British parents, obviously. It's a matter of record he served a seven-year qualification period. Looking at Tony Greig (6 years from county debut to test side), Allan Lamb (4 years), Chris Smith (4 years) & Robin Smith (6 years) Hick's seven years seems the exception rather than the norm. All of the others have at least one British parent, so it seems odd longer would've been required if Hick did too.

 

[Goughy]

Not sure he has British parents, obviously. It's a matter of record he served a seven-year qualification period. Looking at Tony Greig (6 years from county debut to test side), Allan Lamb (4 years), Chris Smith (4 years) & Robin Smith (6 years) Hick's seven years seems the exception rather than the norm. All of the others have at least one British parent, so it seems odd longer would've been required if Hick did too.

Yeah I could be wrong. Appears his Dad was born and raised in Zim. However, I cant see about the mother.

Hick would have prob been a British passport holder though, as most white Zims were.

 

[fredfertang]

Yeah I could be wrong. Appears his Dad was born and raised in Zim. However, I cant see about the mother.

Hick would have prob been a British passport holder though, as most white Zims were.

Hick's parents were 24 carat old fashioned Rhodesians - Dad represented them at Tennis and Mum at Hockey - genealogists were instructed at the time he decided to qualify for England and the nearest they found were a great grandfather on his father's side who was born at sea and then lived in Liverpool and his maternal great grandfather who was born in Yorkshire - neither were good enough so he had to do the ten years (later reduced to seven for all-comers though that decision was allegedly nothing to do with Hick's wait)

 

[steds]

Nah, du Plessis is 100% South African UIMM, as really is ten Doeschate. Cue Lancashire fan pratts mentioning that there are actually 43 from France though.

Sorry to disappoint. Not got internet atm.

 

[fredfertang]

If you cant see the relevance then that is up to you.

Are you advocating a return to the days when the likes of Bill Edrich, just because he was born in a minor county, had to reside in a first class county for two years before he could play in the Championship and Gloucestershire could take two years out of Tom Graveney's career because he had the temerity to want to play for Worcestershire?

The importance of cricketers being born in and/or brought up in the county for which they played led to the establishment of the old order of the "big six" which endured right up to the end of the 60's - I am not denigrating Yorkshire's achievement in winning all those titles with only Yorkshire born players but the old (and its not that long ago they were fully abolished) qualification rules were infinitely worse for the game than the current set

So no I don't think county of birth is a relevant issue - that's not to say that I don't believe funding to counties shouldn't be related to the number of genuine England qualified players they have on their staff as i do - nor that I didn't find the figures you began this thread with interesting (on the contrary they make fascinating reading) - its just that it shouldn't matter whether a county's latest signing was born in Berwick, Mevagissy or any point in between.

 

[Craig]

I know it is OT to Mr Fertang's post, but was Allan Lamb a lot like KP, with his mother (or indeed father?) of English heritage or were they 100% South Africans?

 

[BoyBrumby]

Hick's parents were 24 carat old fashioned Rhodesians - Dad represented them at Tennis and Mum at Hockey - genealogists were instructed at the time he decided to qualify for England and the nearest they found were a great grandfather on his father's side who was born at sea and then lived in Liverpool and his maternal great grandfather who was born in Yorkshire - neither were good enough so he had to do the ten years (later reduced to seven for all-comers though that decision was allegedly nothing to do with Hick's wait)

Interesting. Does anyone know why D'Oliveira didn't have to do a 10-year stint then? He took out citizenship before his test debut, but presumably Hick could've done the same after 5 years UK residence.

I know it is OT to Mr Fertang's post, but was Allan Lamb a lot like KP, with his mother (or indeed father?) of English heritage or were they 100% South Africans?

Both Lamb's parents were English-born. He was a UK passport holder before his arrival in the mother country.

Chris & Robin Smith had two English folks too & Tony & Ian Grieg's dad was a Scot.

 

[The Masterplan]

I know this is off topic in a fairly massive way, but does anyone else think that Lee Westwood looks as though he has Downs Syndrome?

No.. are you mad?

 

[stumpski]

Just to keep this going a little longer, it occurred to me that you could draw up some pretty good 'exiles' teams for Yorkshire and Surrey (and perhaps Lancs too, but maybe not Sussex) of players who were born and educated in one of said counties, and/or played for them, but went on to have successful careers elsewhere. The most successful 'Sussexport' I can think of is Ian Salisbury, and even he took (slightly) more wickets for Sussex than for Surrey. Anyone want to offer some for other counties, go ahead, but I'll kick off with Surrey Exiles:

Raman Subba Row (Northants)
Michael Carberry (Kent and Hants)
David Smith (Worcs and Sussex)
Younis Ahmed (Worcs)
David Sales (Northants)
Len Braund (Somerset)
Ben Scott (Middx)
Freddie Brown (N'hants, capt)
John Emburey (Middx)
Jonathan Agnew (Leics)
Bob Willis (Warks)

Agnew and Emburey only played for Surrey 2nds, while Sales gets in on having been born in Carshalton and educated at Caterham School. The team's a bit light on pace, we might need to get 'Smudger' Smith to bowl some of his 'wrong-footers.' Have I forgotten a fast bowler or two?