County Championship- Where are they from?

[Chubb]

Devon's contribution is simply not good enough. As the most consistent Minor County of the last decade or more, we ought to have produced more than just Matt Wood- we can't take credit for Chris Read. I blame Zummerzett foisting their second-team players on our county team.

 

[fredfertang]

I'm not 100% sure actually.

Edit: To tell the truth, I'm not even 20% sure

Not much point in my asking about how this trust gets round the rule against perpetuities then - it'll be so far over our heads we wont be able to reach it - ignorance of such important matters illustrates how useless the average lawyer is

 

[zaremba]

Not much point in my asking about how this trust gets round the rule against perpetuities then - it'll be so far over our heads we wont be able to reach it - ignorance of such important matters illustrates how useless the average lawyer is

Quite. Trust law is like a horrible foreign language to me.

 

[Richard]

Yep he's a good prospect - he's bowled well this season, and can bat.

There are three promising young spinners at Sussex (Rayner, Beer, Smith) and so the replacement for Mushy next season is likely to be a fast bowler. Quite possibly Mo Sami. Although my view is that if Mendis is on the market we should bid the farm on him (I read somewhere that Sussex, Lanky and Slurrey may be interested in signing him).

I always thought Sussex did well out of Australian batsmen TBH. And I can't help wondering if the ECB would be able to once again insist Goodwin was an overseas-player. If so, I guess Sussex would want to keep him.

 

[zaremba]

I always thought Sussex did well out of Australian batsmen TBH.

And Pakistani bowlers!

I can't help wondering if the ECB would be able to once again insist Goodwin was an overseas-player. If so, I guess Sussex would want to keep him.

It might depend on whether we sign one or two of the batsmen we're currently talking to.

 

[Richard]

And Pakistani bowlers!

Aye, that Imran Khan weren't the worst.

(D'you remember much of his time at Hove BTW?)

 

[zaremba]

Aye, that Imran Khan weren't the worst.

(D'you remember much of his time at Hove BTW?)

Yes he was our overseas pro (along with Garth le Roux) when I was growing up. Imran refused to give me his autograph which still rankles a bit. These early scars can be slow to heal...

 

[Goughy]

Looking at Sussex (purely as it has been mentioned earlier, there is an interest in the club and I have only time to look at 1 team).

Over the past 25 years (as far as I can see and I hope Im accurate) Sussex born players have contributed 9 Test appearances from players that debuted in that time.

It could get worse going back further.

During that 25 year period there were 3135 caps available (285 Tests x 11)

Sussex born players have contributed 0.2% of the places in England Test teams.

Thats shocking numbers, especialy when taken in conjunction with how few Sussex born cricketers are currently playing FC cricket.

The question is why Sussex produces so little cricket talent?

It is obviously a well managed County. Great selecion of overseas talent, well run and the little talent that is produced tends to represent the County rather than elsewhere.

A lot of kudos to the administration, but where are the born and raised cricketers?

 

[stumpski]

Yes I suppose when you think about it most of Sussex's successful England players - Greig, Snow, Dexter and Sheppard for instance - were born outside the county. You'd probably have to go back to Maurice Tate to find a Sussex-born cricketer who had a lengthy Test career. Zaremba may know this, but is there an example of a Sussex native who had a successful career with another county, or with England?

 

[Matteh]

I had the pleasure of meeting John Barclay last night. Nice chap. German.
As is Ollie "Fritz" Rayner.

Full name Oliver Philip Rayner
Born November 1, 1985, Fallingbostel, Germany

With my insider knowledge on this subject, can tell you that Fallingbostel is the location of a British Forces barracks. The guy's almost certainly English.

EDIT: Just read the rest of the thread, was absolutely spot on.

 

[superkingdave]

I mean that despite being an historic County in its own regard, it gets lumped in with Lancashire. Cant think of any others that incorporate other Counties like this.

Its a bit of a wierd situationProbably a similar situation to Northumberland to be honest, both play Minor Counties cricket, but pretty much anyone who is decent from there would be with the full county(eg i think Harmison is technically from Northumberland).

We seem to have agreements with the likes of Cheshire and Cumbria that they nominate one or two players to join our academy every year.

 

[zaremba]

Looking at Sussex (purely as it has been mentioned earlier, there is an interest in the club and I have only time to look at 1 team).

Over the past 25 years (as far as I can see and I hope Im accurate) Sussex born players have contributed 9 Test appearances from players that debuted in that time.

It could get worse going back further.

During that 25 year period there were 3135 caps available (285 Tests x 11)

Sussex born players have contributed 0.2% of the places in England Test teams.

Thats shocking numbers, especialy when taken in conjunction with how few Sussex born cricketers are currently playing FC cricket.

The question is why Sussex produces so little cricket talent?

It is obviously a well managed County. Great selecion of overseas talent, well run and the little talent that is produced tends to represent the County rather than elsewhere.

A lot of kudos to the administration, but where are the born and raised cricketers?

I agree with your implicit point, which is that Sussex players have received a very raw deal over the years when it comes to being picked for England.

The alternative analysis is that Sussex have been one of the weaker teams for years, never winning the championship until 2003. Lack of money may have played a part - these things can be self-perpetuating.

However things are starting to change now. As I showed in an earlier post, while the current team may only have 9 Sussex-born players, at least 4 others in the squad are in fact also men of Sussex (the most graphic example being Ollie Rayner whose Dad is a lifelong Sussex fan but who happened to be posted to an overseas military base when Ollie was born). That makes by my count in effect 13 local players which isn't so bad.

 

[zaremba]

Yes I suppose when you think about it most of Sussex's successful England players - Greig, Snow, Dexter and Sheppard for instance - were born outside the county. You'd probably have to go back to Maurice Tate to find a Sussex-born cricketer who had a lengthy Test career. Zaremba may know this, but is there an example of a Sussex native who had a successful career with another county, or with England?

Not many Sussex players have had lengthy Test careers and you're probably right about Tate being the last. And going further back, even CB Fry was born in bloody Slurrey!

Not sure about any Sussex exiles who've had long Test careers after moving to other Counties.

To take two of the examples you've given, Snow had the misfortune not to be born in Sussex but so what? He was schooled there (and played cricket in Sussex against my Dad when they were kids) and grew up there. And if we're going by accident of birth then Dexter is, of course, Italian, which shows how relevant one's birthplace is.

 

[Craig]

I agree with your implicit point, which is that Sussex players have received a very raw deal over the years when it comes to being picked for England.

The alternative analysis is that Sussex have been one of the weaker teams for years, never winning the championship until 2003. Lack of money may have played a part - these things can be self-perpetuating.

However things are starting to change now. As I showed in an earlier post, while the current team may only have 9 Sussex-born players, at least 4 others in the squad are in fact also men of Sussex (the most graphic example being Ollie Rayner whose Dad is a lifelong Sussex fan but who happened to be posted to an overseas military base when Ollie was born). That makes by my count in effect 13 local players which isn't so bad.

I'll agree with you there. For me it is a very greay area on what counts as 'developed' or 'home grown'. IMO if a cricketer is born in another county/country (at a young age) but moved to another county and learnt his trade there, then he is considered 'local' for mine. Like John Snow and Ted Dexter. Nasser Hussain for mine is an Essex man through and through despite being born in Chennai and therefore is considered a 'local'.

 

[fredfertang]

At a rough count Sussex have produced around 50 test cricketers which must be their fair share and more surely?

And they have produced some real quality ones too - I dont really see what the accident of birth means - its where the cricketing upbringing is that counts - as I mentioned earlier even the mighty Lord Hawke wasn't born in Yorkshire

Jim Parks had a longer career than Tate - and presumably Haywards Heath is as Sussex as you get?

 

[zaremba]

At a rough count Sussex have produced around 50 test cricketers which must be their fair share and more surely?

And they have produced some real quality ones too - I dont really see what the accident of birth means - its where the cricketing upbringing is that counts - as I mentioned earlier even the mighty Lord Hawke wasn't born in Yorkshire

Jim Parks had a longer career than Tate - and presumably Haywards Heath is as Sussex as you get?

Fred you're a gent. I imagine you may have been mellowed by that incredible victory yesterday!

 

[fredfertang]

Fred you're a gent. I imagine you may have been mellowed by that incredible victory yesterday!

I suppose, given I have assisted Mrs Fertang in the garden this morning that I must have.

I am also a lot more content now Somerset have stabilised against the tykes as, I would think, are you Mr Z

 

[Craig]

Out of interest, of all the foreign born cricketers who have played Tests for England, how many moved over to play CC and later Tests for England (like your Ron Headley's, Basil d'Oliviera's), in other words they had no English heritage compared to the likes of Darren Pattinson, Andrew Strauss, Kevin Pietersen etc. who were of all English heritage?

I note that the late Bob Woolmer and Colin Cowdrey (amongst others in that era) where born in India, and obviously they had English heritage, so what was it that lead their families to being in India, purely business related?

 

[fredfertang]

Woolmer Snr was an "Insurance executive" and Cowdrey Snr owned/managed a tea plantation

 

[BoyBrumby]

Out of interest, of all the foreign born cricketers who have played Tests for England, how many moved over to play CC and later Tests for England (like your Ron Headley's, Basil d'Oliviera's), in other words they had no English heritage compared to the likes of Darren Pattinson, Andrew Strauss, Kevin Pietersen etc. who were of all English heritage?

I note that the late Bob Woolmer and Colin Cowdrey (amongst others in that era) where born in India, and obviously they had English heritage, so what was it that lead their families to being in India, purely business related?

Ron Headley never played for England, although he did have a long CC career. &, to be fair, Pattinson was born in Grimsby, which is why he didn't have to serve a qualification period.

Nit-picking aside, to answer your question, quite a few English test players are foreign-born and have no family connections to Britain I know of. A lot of our black cricketers (Norman Cowans, De Freitas, Devon Malcolm, Chris Lewis & Joey Benjamin off the top of my head) were caribbean-born & I don't think have any English antecendants. Same with a few players of Asian-extraction: Min Patel, Owais Shah & Usman Afzaal were subcontinental-born and I don't know of English heritage. Nasser himself was born in Madras (as was), but his mum is English. Although all really moved over as children, rather than just to play for England. So maybe the only ones who came over as adults and have no family connections are Ranji, Duleep & the Nawab of Pataudi. Not sure about Hick either in all honesty.

Woolmer & Cowdrey (and Jardine and Jackman and probably many more) were, I suspect, born in India during the time of the Raj and have no Indian heritage as such, although there was once talk of Jardine playing for India as their first captain, if his biographer Christopher Douglas is to be believed. History could've been very different indeed.