Why do England struggle to produce undisputedly great players?

[smash84]

Yeah obv. Not the level of Imran and Miller but Botham and Kapil are definetly ATGs in my book.

Agreed.

 

[ankitj]

Yeah obv. Not the level of Imran and Miller but Botham and Kapil are definetly ATGs in my book.

Pretty much the same level. I will rank Botham slightly below Imran and at par with Miller, but the same cluster.

 

[zaremba]

It is an interesting question. Not sure I know the answer.

When we use an individual example like Crowe, it's meaninglessly small sample size of one (why are all towns in Australia other than Bowral so bad at producing players of the class of Don Bradman?).

But when we look a bit more widely, it's true that we have recently produced no ATG players whereas every other Test playing country has done, and it's so noticeable that it calls for an explanation. Botham was the last we produced; Gooch and Gower not far off; no-one else. Some very fine players, but none that stand out.

 

[MW1304]

Ian Botham an ATG??

Pretty sure the original question was, since Botham, why haven't there been any ATG's, and undoubtedly there are no undisputed ATG's.

Kevin Pietersen should be brought up, as he certainly has the potential, but I seriously doubt he will actually make full use of that potential seeing as he's supposed to be in his prime years and yet is faltering significantly. And considering he's only half of British descent, this whole crap about gene pools and body builds can't be taken into account. I personally think talk of genes specific to countries is ridiculous - it is something completely special and different about someones character and talent that makes them such greats, nothing to do with which chromosomes they took from their parents. There is no talent gene that is simply everywhere in Australia and nowhere in England, just the right balance of good coaching, first class system, hard work, luck, that sort of thing. Its puzzling as to why there has not been that mix of natural ability and mental strength (which most English players, I believe, have in abundance) to create someone special in this country.

Or this country is just ****.

 

[r3alist]

Waqar, Wasim, Asif, Aamer and even Shoaib Chucktar are all from Punjab. So quite irrelevant - they're from the exact same racial stock as Indian Punjabis.

there is no way you know they are from the same racial stock, you are using the most superficial of criteria, the punjab is a pretty cosmopolitan place and the pak side has absorbed a lot of people over the years - that would in fact make it more dissimilar to indian punjab.

 

[Faisal1985]

Pretty sure the original question was, since Botham, why haven't there been any ATG's, and undoubtedly there are no undisputed ATG's.

Kevin Pietersen should be brought up, as he certainly has the potential, but I seriously doubt he will actually make full use of that potential seeing as he's supposed to be in his prime years and yet is faltering significantly. And considering he's only half of British descent, this whole crap about gene pools and body builds can't be taken into account. I personally think talk of genes specific to countries is ridiculous - it is something completely special and different about someones character and talent that makes them such greats, nothing to do with which chromosomes they took from their parents. There is no talent gene that is simply everywhere in Australia and nowhere in England, just the right balance of good coaching, first class system, hard work, luck, that sort of thing. Its puzzling as to why there has not been that mix of natural ability and mental strength (which most English players, I believe, have in abundance) to create someone special in this country.

Or this country is just ****.

And i was kinda questioning that.

 

[Faisal1985]

there is no way you know they are from the same racial stock, you are using the most superficial of criteria, the punjab is a pretty cosmopolitan place and the pak side has absorbed a lot of people over the years - that would in fact make it more dissimilar to indian punjab.

Well, nutrition wise its quite similar tbh.

 

[MW1304]

And i was kinda questioning that.

Wow. Thats an interesting view.

Look at it this way. Considering Imran Khan is considered an ATG by a country mile, and Ian Botham is considered to be in the layer of all-rounders directly below Imran, does it not follow that Botham, whilst not by a country mile, is still relatively firmly enforced into the realms of ATG. If you take into account his hostility, his in-your-face competitivity, his lethal performances with both bat and ball (even in the field), the way he carried his team for such a long time. Heck even cricinfo did an ATG programme on him and, whilst they are not the be all and end all, they have a pretty good insight - especially when you see what his fellow cricketers have to say about him.

 

[smash84]

there is no way you know they are from the same racial stock, you are using the most superficial of criteria, the punjab is a pretty cosmopolitan place and the pak side has absorbed a lot of people over the years - that would in fact make it more dissimilar to indian punjab.

What do you mean???? It still is not that cosmopolitan that it would have changed the racial stock of the region significantly.

 

[marc71178]

Pretty sure the original question was, since Botham, why haven't there been any ATG's, and undoubtedly there are no undisputed ATG's.

I'd love to see a list of all the players since Botham that the OP considers to be ATGs.

 

[hallmitchell]

Good Question

If the best athletes are going to Football. Where are they? England in Football has made the top four in world cups once since 1966. They had a dream draw in 2010 in South Africa. Didn't make the next round despite the team worth on paper being hundreds of millions of pounds.

If it's anything it has to be the system. Great players just aren't coming through. Population isn't a problem. Money isn't a problem. Who knows how many great players have been lost or just can't be bothered.

 

[outbreak]

Are kids playing less sport on a whole in england these days? I know most of the relations i have with younger children don't have them playing as much sport as i and everyone i knew played growing up. In india and the like, i may be way off here but from what i see on TV shows there is large areas of poverty and areas which wouldn't have as many other pass times as you find in england could result in kids getting together more and playing more sports. Culture would also play a part if people of other religions over there stay more focused on sports rather then hitting their teens and running off to get drunk/do drugs and the like.
From what i see in Australia and i imagine England would be the same alot of kids these days have other interests to kill time these days on xbox's, computers and the like. Australia's schools do still push sport alot though and i know every public school i've seen near me (i work in the education department too) has at least one sports oval suitable for cricket and in some cases they'll have 2, which may be why the effect isn't so bad here? Australians would probably also be more involved as AFL football and cricket seem to go hand in hand here.

 

[NasserFan207]

The British school system is pretty terrible when it comes to sport, far inferior to what Australia has.

Sport is almost non-existent in primary school. Somewhat better after that, but still fairly poor in comparison.

My school had a cricket club which was okish, but things were very unproffesional, poor coaching etc. There was no path I could see for talented kids to develop.

Maybe its down to the weather. Football or Rugby is easy to organise and can be played all year round, cricket takes effort which schools aren't willing to put into, since most don't really care about sport anyway.

 

[outbreak]

Where i grew up in Australia AFL football was the main sport but at school people would be in the AFL side in winter then the cricket side in summer. They were the 2 big sports everyone tried out for. Primary school was the same here.

 

[Burgey]

Well TBF it's still footy (of whatever code) in winter and cricket in summer for the most part.

What I think has changed in Australia is with the now rampant professionalism in all codes, kids are having to choose at a much younger age than they used to. I mean, going well back, they could play both cricket and a winter sport to a fairly high level.

Now though, with talent identification, kids are getting into semi-professional footy at around 16 (by semi-professional I mean in terms of training and becoming part of a club's system), and their other interests just fall by the wayside. And there are however many hundred spots in a professional footy comp for a talented to youngster to fill and make good coin from. There are 12 spots in a Test team of ocurse, and given the overlap between formats, not that many spots going for youngsters to make good coin in the cricket system.

 

[TT Boy]

Chris Cairns- legend.

Lunchtime.

 

[Prince EWS]

Lunchtime.

indeed

 

[Chubb]

The British school system is pretty terrible when it comes to sport, far inferior to what Australia has.

Sport is almost non-existent in primary school. Somewhat better after that, but still fairly poor in comparison.

My school had a cricket club which was okish, but things were very unproffesional, poor coaching etc. There was no path I could see for talented kids to develop.

Maybe its down to the weather. Football or Rugby is easy to organise and can be played all year round, cricket takes effort which schools aren't willing to put into, since most don't really care about sport anyway.

School sport in British state schools is an utter scandal. Since coming to New Zealand I've become ever more aware of just how bad it is.

My secondary school had a grass athletics track/ rugby field/ football pitch, a small gym, some concrete tennis courts and a nasty cut-up cigarette butt-coated artificial cricket pitch. We were lucky there was a sports centre across the road where we could use the hall for basketball/indoor cricket and the field for outdoor games if necessary.

It doesn't sound too bad, but it all felt so half-arsed. We never seemed to play proper sports - non-stop cricket, that kind of thing. At the time I truly earned my username so I wasn't taking advantage of what there was, but l think it sucked compared to NZ.

Compare Mountainview High School in Timaru. It is the lowest-decile secondary school in the city with a "rough" reputation by New Zealand standards, but it had facilities to rival a private school in the UK. My cricket and hockey teams trained up there. Two turf cricket squares, turf and articficial nets, a rugby field, an artificial hockey pitch, netball/basketball courts, tennis courts, and I never even saw the indoor facilities! And the other schools- TBHS, TGHS, Roncalli and Craighead had the same, if not better. It is similar in Oamaru.

Moreover, the structure is so much better. Proper inter-school competitions, not the half-arsed one-off friendlies we had in England. Teams in the local cricket leagues- top grade stuff and lower levels. Participation across the board, but with the opportunity to excel.

I don't think you can totally blame my school. You need to have the drive to take advantage of what you have and I don't blame my school for lack of success in sport. There are plenty of sports clubs in England for kids to join if they want to. It's just the culture in NZ schools is so much stronger, which inculcates a good attitude in the kids.

 

[PhoenixFire]

Yeah within most state schools I think it's pretty woeful. My school was pretty good and all Grammar schools will have fantastic facilities.

 

[Furball]

A popular school of thought has been over the years that there's not enough serious cricket played among the working class kids and there is an over-reliance upon posh, public schoolboys.

Which doesn't explain why virtually every England bowler to take more than 200 Test wickets are Northerners.