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Why do England struggle to produce undisputedly great players?

TT Boy

Hall of Fame Member
School sport in British state schools is an utter scandal. Since coming to New Zealand I've become ever more aware of just how bad it is.

My secondary school had a grass athletics track/ rugby field/ football pitch, a small gym, some concrete tennis courts and a nasty cut-up cigarette butt-coated artificial cricket pitch. We were lucky there was a sports centre across the road where we could use the hall for basketball/indoor cricket and the field for outdoor games if necessary.

It doesn't sound too bad, but it all felt so half-arsed. We never seemed to play proper sports - non-stop cricket, that kind of thing. At the time I truly earned my username so I wasn't taking advantage of what there was, but l think it sucked compared to NZ.

Compare Mountainview High School in Timaru. It is the lowest-decile secondary school in the city with a "rough" reputation by New Zealand standards, but it had facilities to rival a private school in the UK. My cricket and hockey teams trained up there. Two turf cricket squares, turf and articficial nets, a rugby field, an artificial hockey pitch, netball/basketball courts, tennis courts, and I never even saw the indoor facilities! And the other schools- TBHS, TGHS, Roncalli and Craighead had the same, if not better. It is similar in Oamaru.

Moreover, the structure is so much better. Proper inter-school competitions, not the half-arsed one-off friendlies we had in England. Teams in the local cricket leagues- top grade stuff and lower levels. Participation across the board, but with the opportunity to excel.

I don't think you can totally blame my school. You need to have the drive to take advantage of what you have and I don't blame my school for lack of success in sport. There are plenty of sports clubs in England for kids to join if they want to. It's just the culture in NZ schools is so much stronger, which inculcates a good attitude in the kids.
Sounds pretty good tbh. We had a slab of concrete outside and an indoor hall where we were only allowed to play badminton and basketball. I spent those indoor classes chasing tail, smoking skunk and going to my mates house to play Halo on the original X-Box. Good times.

Should mention that my school did "produce" a current England international footballer, few other ex and current pros, a European and Commonwealth athlete and a girl who competed at the Beijing Olympics in something.
 
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TT Boy

Hall of Fame Member
What I've learnt from this thread is that the Poms badly overrate their rugger chaps (it's nauseating to hear about the ATG status of Bob Plodder and Jim Scrummington and 20 other blokes no-one has ever heard of) and they seriously underrate Lennox Lewis.
Probably because he was Canadian and boring.
 

Black_Warrior

Cricketer Of The Year
Not since Ian Botham have England produced a genuine ATG player, Graham Gooch is a borderline case but his career was very much a game of different halfs. In this time every test playing nation have managed to do so with the exception of Bangladesh.

Australia, the West Indies, India, Pakistan, South Africa, Sri Lanka obviously all have obvious candidates over this time period. New Zealand have produced Martin Crowe and Shane Bond whilst Zimbabwe were graced by the genius Andy Flower. England historically have not had a problem producing undisputed greats, but since the 80s they have dried up and during their good spells as a cricketing nation have always been a team that struck you as 'sum is greater than the parts' combo.

There have been in this period players who enjoyed great spells, threatened greatness but ultimately fell short. Gough, Thorpe, Flintoff, Vaughan, Harmison etc.

What is to explain for this phenomena? For a nation with such top notch facilities and resources it does seem very odd.
Wow thats a good point.
Vaughan looked like a world class great batsman back in 02-03..I thought he would be in the same bracket at Kallis/Dravid but fitness problems and inconsistencies prevented that.

Flintoff I would say was a world class all rounder..he was by far the best all rounder at his peak. No dispute on that.

Pieterson is an interesting case really.. In terms of his potential, talent, shot range, he definitely looks like a truly great batsman..even yesterday when he was not at his best, some of the shots he managed to play, even Cook who got a 67 wasnt able to play those.
I will give him 2 more years to see if he can maintain a 50 plus average or not.

I dont see anyone else coming close to being an all time great batsman.

Coming to bowlers, Anderson and Broad have the potential...this Ashes will be the acid test for them really.. But at the moment they are far far away from being undisputed great.

I dont know, its an interesting point you made. I hope we see a young, promising batsman/bowler bursting in.. It will be great for the game.. But yeah I do see where you're coming from.
 

ImpatientLime

International Regular
Has this changed since England's rise to the top of the test match rankings.

Are any of the current crop threatening an England all time XI?
 

ImpatientLime

International Regular
Prior's a really good shout actually.

Only Ames challenging him for that role if you want a batsman/keeper in your XI.
 

fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
There's no comparison between Alan Knott and Matt Prior as 'keepers - Knotty was as good as there has ever been whereas Prior, although he has improved enormously, just isn't in the same league.

I'm not sure that there is that much between them with the bat either - I appreciate that Prior's average is about ten points higher, but I can't imagine he'd have done any better against Lillee and Thomson or Clive Lloyd's 1976 West Indians than Knott did
 

weeman27bob

International Regular
I wouldn't say Prior would make an England ATG XI, but he comes much closer than most of the rest of the current bunch, in my opinion.
 

Cabinet96

Global Moderator
I'd say Cook, Prior, Anderson, Broad and Pietersen all have chances of being remembered as ATG's if they continue to do very well for a few years.
 

ImpatientLime

International Regular
Not to mention Sutcliffe, Boycott and Grace.

Tough on Cook though as I don't think another cricketing nation has that depth in openers.
 

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