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WI all time XI vs Aus all time XI

wfdu_ben91

International 12th Man
I am really amused at how Gilchrist gets chosen as Australia's greatest wicket keeper. Mind you I am not talking of his batting.

I have heard the argument of his having kept to Shane Warne as some kind of proof of his keeping abilities.

This inspite of Shane Warne himself rating Healy a better wicket keeper than Gilchrist.

I wonder how many people really know much about the other great Australian keepers like Tallon and Oldfield for example or how many people can make an assessment about a wicket keeper's abilities?
It's a pretty obvious selection. His the best when it comes to allround ability, although Healy was a better wicketkeeper. Mind you, I don't really take much notice over wicketkeepers, because unless they noticiably drop allot of catches, stumpings, etc then not much seperates the International wicketkeepers purely on wicketkeeping ability. If they're a good enough keeper then it's best to opt for the best batsman, because not everyone is going to grasp everything.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
how many people can make an assessment about a wicket keeper's abilities?
To be frank, Im not sure I can and Ive spent years coaching. Is the spectacular as important as consistency, are fast hands better than fundamental footwork etc?

I can tell a good keeper from a bad keeper but, IMO, it is always tough to differentiate between two good keepers.
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
I am really amused at how Gilchrist gets chosen as Australia's greatest wicket keeper. Mind you I am not talking of his batting.

I have heard the argument of his having kept to Shane Warne as some kind of proof of his keeping abilities.

This inspite of Shane Warne himself rating Healy a better wicket keeper than Gilchrist.

I wonder how many people really know much about the other great Australian keepers like Tallon and Oldfield for example or how many people can make an assessment about a wicket keeper's abilities?
I'd agree that Gilchrist isn't nearly as good as Healy with the gloves. However, in my team I'd probably want Miller playing along with four other bowlers, and having Gilchrist in my side allows me to do that. If I were to only go with four bowlers, I'd be happy to put a Healy/other in there.
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
dont want to miss out on all the fun. have resisted it for too long

openers

trumper
hayden

vs
hunte
greenidge
Just to Australia. Razor thin margin though, could go either way depending on the day.

middle order

bradman
g.chappell
ponting

vs
headley
richards
lara
Again, Australia. Bradman is the difference here. Chappell/Ponting might be slightly below Richards and Lara but not by enough that the difference between Bradman and Headley would be made up for.

all rounder

miller
vs
sobers
No score draw. Both players slot perfectly into their teams and cover for the teams relative weaknesses so well that it is impossible to compare them properly.

wk

gilchrist

vs
dujon
Gilchrist here by a fair margin, mainly because of his batting. Dujon may be slightly ahead as a pure keeper, but not by enough to make a difference.


bowlers

lillee
warne
oreilly
mcgrath

vs
marshall
ambrose
holding
gibbs
This is the most contentious of the matchups. Obviously Warne is better than Gibbs, so on turning/wearing pitches that would give Australia an advantage. However on fast/bouncy pitches the WIndies bowlers come out ahead (even dropping O'Reilly for Davidson or Lindwall). Sobers fills the spin bowling gap on normal wickets for the WIndies, while Miller adds the third quick bowling option.

a six test series between these teams could easily end with a score of 3-3. and a five test series 3-2 in favor of australia. it is that close. with so many attacking batsmen and potent strike bowlers in both sides, i dont expect any game to end in a draw.
The matchup certainly looks a lot more in Australia's favour when you break it down into player categories like this, but overall it is very tight. I mean the only real difference in bowling quality is that the WIndies bowlers have probably got better options on quick wickets while the Aussies have a more flexible outfit. The batting quality difference is almost impossible to measure as the advantages that Bradman brings are reduced by the disadvantage of Miller, whos overall package is necessary for this outfit to be competative IMO.

In the end the series could be decided in one hour on the final afternoon in a Gilchrist whirlwind double hundred.

EDIT: One advantage that Australia would bring is depth. The ability to change out an underperforming opener with Lawry, Simpson or Ponsford and an underperforming middle order bat with Border, Waugh or Harvey gives the batting lineup more depth than the WIndies, but only just. The WIndies could bring in Weekes, Walcott or Worrell if one of their middle order or keeper was failing. If Gilchrist was dropping everything Healy could come in to replace him as he made a ton against one of the most venemous WI attacks ever assembled and is one of the best keepers of all time.

Bowling-wise, Aus have a spare spinner in Grimmett and are looking at bench strength consisting primarily of Lindwall, Davidson and maybe even Spoffoth. The WIndies don't really have any other spin options, but do have Garner, Walsh and Roberts as quicks (with players like Croft in a pinch). For quicks it definately appears that the WIndies have stronger bench strength than the Aussies.
 
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bagapath

International Captain
I wonder how many people really know much about the other great Australian keepers like Tallon and Oldfield for example or how many people can make an assessment about a wicket keeper's abilities?
I would assume the same number of people comparing trumper, bradman and oreilly with the modern greats.

purely in wicket keeping terms healy could be better than gilly. but gilly's batting more than compensates for any lack of great wicket keeping skills. of course, he was a very good keeper; but had he averaged less than 30 with the bat healy would still have been chosen ahead of him. it so happens that he averaged 46 and that too at a devastating strike rate making him the greatest no.7 in the history of the game. not choosing him would amount to denying yourself a serious match winner against anybody anywhere.
 

wfdu_ben91

International 12th Man
I'd agree that Gilchrist isn't nearly as good as Healy with the gloves. However, in my team I'd probably want Miller playing along with four other bowlers, and having Gilchrist in my side allows me to do that. If I were to only go with four bowlers, I'd be happy to put a Healy/other in there.
Batting Gilchrist as a regular number 6 would be diasterous, champ. Esp when it comes to alltime XI's.
 

bagapath

International Captain
Batting Gilchrist as a regular number 6 would be diasterous, champ. Esp when it comes to alltime XI's.
miller is good enough at 6. gilly will come in at his regular slot. if there is a push to play four bowlers then border/harvey will have to come in for miller, healy for gilly and spofforth/lindwall for oreilly.

the west indians will stick to the same team, i assume.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
I would assume the same number of people comparing trumper, bradman and oreilly with the modern greats.
.
I have absolutely no problem if people left out Trumper or Grace or even latter day batsmen. I am not even talking of different eras. It is purely a question of understanding what constitutes good wicket -keeping.

I would not have said "I am amused" if someone had put Healy's name in place of Gilchrist's. I may have a different opinion but I can understand that its not always easy to compare players from bygone eras. But Gilchrist is not even amongst the top ten keepers since I started watching the game and thats just forty years. He was not the best keeper of his own generation. Anyone who knows anything about the art and craft of keeping will realise that.

Its clear that the fan is most enamoured by batting and keeping is the least understood and appreciated in its nuances by the common fan.

As far as putting him there for batting is concerned, when you make an all time Australian XI with six all time great batsmen, if you still need a modest keeper to help them out with their batting problems, it is strange,

By the way, when Warne rated Healy above Gilchrist, he was rating them as cricketers and not purely as keepers. So Warne prefered Healy over Gilchrist as a complete packet even after accounting for Gilchrist's batting.

The same, is true for the Windies side, by the way. Walcott kept wickets in only 15 of his 44 Test matches yet we think he is a good enough keeper for an all time West Indies side.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
To be frank, Im not sure I can and Ive spent years coaching. Is the spectacular as important as consistency, are fast hands better than fundamental footwork etc?

I can tell a good keeper from a bad keeper but, IMO, it is always tough to differentiate between two good keepers.
I know of lots of coaches who cant and some who can; but most good wicket keepers can.

But it is true that most cricketers do not understand wicket keeping because most of them have never ever bothered to learn about it in their playing days.

You dont even read much about it. In my big collection of cricket books, those on wicket-keeping are so few its not funny but thats why they are also so precious :)
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
As far as putting him there for batting is concerned, when you make an all time Australian XI with six all time great batsmen, if you still need a modest keeper to help them out with their batting problems, it is strange
For me, you can never, ever have too much batting. Against four, or five, of the best bowlers you'll see, you need batting down as far as you can get. Gilchrist was an OK wicketkeeper and thus he can easily be tolerated. Why do you need an exceptional wicketkeeper in an all-time side? How will an OK one not be perfectly sufficient?

Gilchrist as a batsman ahead of Healy, Tallon, Oldfield or Carter adds immeasurable strength. Healy, Tallon, Oldfield or Carter as a wicketkeeper ahead of Gilchrist adds not-all-that-much.
 

Slifer

International Captain
Just to Australia. Razor thin margin though, could go either way depending on the day.



Again, Australia. Bradman is the difference here. Chappell/Ponting might be slightly below Richards and Lara but not by enough that the difference between Bradman and Headley would be made up for.



No score draw. Both players slot perfectly into their teams and cover for the teams relative weaknesses so well that it is impossible to compare them properly.



Gilchrist here by a fair margin, mainly because of his batting. Dujon may be slightly ahead as a pure keeper, but not by enough to make a difference.



This is the most contentious of the matchups. Obviously Warne is better than Gibbs, so on turning/wearing pitches that would give Australia an advantage. However on fast/bouncy pitches the WIndies bowlers come out ahead (even dropping O'Reilly for Davidson or Lindwall). Sobers fills the spin bowling gap on normal wickets for the WIndies, while Miller adds the third quick bowling option.



The matchup certainly looks a lot more in Australia's favour when you break it down into player categories like this, but overall it is very tight. I mean the only real difference in bowling quality is that the WIndies bowlers have probably got better options on quick wickets while the Aussies have a more flexible outfit. The batting quality difference is almost impossible to measure as the advantages that Bradman brings are reduced by the disadvantage of Miller, whos overall package is necessary for this outfit to be competative IMO.

In the end the series could be decided in one hour on the final afternoon in a Gilchrist whirlwind double hundred.

EDIT: One advantage that Australia would bring is depth. The ability to change out an underperforming opener with Lawry, Simpson or Ponsford and an underperforming middle order bat with Border, Waugh or Harvey gives the batting lineup more depth than the WIndies, but only just. The WIndies could bring in Weekes, Walcott or Worrell if one of their middle order or keeper was failing. If Gilchrist was dropping everything Healy could come in to replace him as he made a ton against one of the most venemous WI attacks ever assembled and is one of the best keepers of all time.

Bowling-wise, Aus have a spare spinner in Grimmett and are looking at bench strength consisting primarily of Lindwall, Davidson and maybe even Spoffoth. The WIndies don't really have any other spin options, but do have Garner, Walsh and Roberts as quicks (with players like Croft in a pinch). For quicks it definately appears that the WIndies have stronger bench strength than the Aussies
.
Wi have as much depth as Australia except as far as spinners are concerned. Actually in retrospect WI doesnt have as much depth as Aust but we do have significant depth in most departments.

Openers: Hunte, Haynes, Greenidge, Fredricks, Rae, Stollmeyer
Middle: Lara, Headley, Sobers, Viv, Worrell, Walcott, Worrell, Chanders, Lloyd, Kanhai, Nurse, Kallicharan.
Keepers" Dujon, Hendricks, Alexander, Murray (Deryck), Walcott
Allrounders: Sobers, OG Smith, Worrell??
Spinners: Gibbs, Ramadhin, Valentine
Fast bowlers: Hall, Gilchrist, Roberts, Holding, Garner, Croft, Marshall, Ambrose, Bishop, Walsh.
 
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Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
You dont even read much about it. In my big collection of cricket books, those on wicket-keeping are so few its not funny but thats why they are also so precious :)
That is a fair point. If you were to develop a library of wicketkeeping books then you would only need a very small room.

Maybe this is the next area for cricket investigation and scientific progress (or maybe we should listen to the skills developed, and experienced, by the experts of yesterday).

Whichever it is, you are right. It is an under examined area.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
That is a fair point. If you were to develop a library of wicketkeeping books then you would only need a very small room.

Maybe this is the next area for cricket investigation and scientific progress (or maybe we should listen to the skills developed, and experienced, by the experts of yesterday).

Whichever it is, you are right. It is an under examined area.
You know Goughy, I suspect it is because of the three disciplines of batting bowling and wicket-keeping, this last one is the one that is most instinctive. Great wicket keepers are the most naturally gifted of all. You can, of course, teach or learn the basics of good wicket-keeping - I can teach them to but the 'touch' of a great keeper is instinctive and inborn. Wicket-keepers are naturals. Thus it becomes equally difficult to teachor coach about this discipline and thus equally difficult to describe what constitutes great wicket-keeping in words.

You will see the great-keepers and then realise it,
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Yeah, that's essentially it. To become a really good wicketkeeper is impossible without a certain "it" which is natural and 100% un-acquire-able. However, to become a good wicketkeeper is eminently possible just through dedication to the job - Alec Stewart and Kumar Sangakkara being two of the best examples of recent times.
 

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
So after the realease of the cricinfo all time test teams, I assume that most would agree that Australia and W.I have the two strongest teams just ahead of South Africa and England.India (weak bowling) and Pakistan are just behind. So with the listed teams for Aus and W.I, who would win. Australia has 4 players in the Cricinfo all time first team, W.I 3, but also their 2 remaining mid order batsmen in the second team with Australia having their second spinner included. Thats six players each, the most from any other nations.
Feedback guys.
 

weldone

Hall of Fame Member
My teams would be:

West Indies XI:
Gordon Greenidge
Viv Richards
George Headley
Brian Lara
Everton Weekes
Garry Sobers*
Clyde Walcott+
Malcolm Marshall
Joel Garner
Curtly Ambrose
Michael Holding

Reserves: Lawrence Rowe, Frank Worrell, Jeff Dujon, Andy Roberts, Lance Gibbs

Australia XI:
Victor Trumper
Clem Hill
Donald Bradman*
Greg Chappell
Steve Waugh
Keith Miller
Adam Gilchrist+
Shane Warne
Bill O'Reilly
Dennis Lillee
Glenn McGrath

Reserves: Matthew Hayden, Allan Border, Don Tallon, Clarrie Grimmett, Alan Davidson
 

ankitj

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Australia XI to win the contest.

Bradman, Gilchrist and Warne are not matched by West Indies XI
 

vcs

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Yeah, I think Marshall stands out a cut above even among the ATG pacers like McGrath, Hadlee, Ambrose etc.
 

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