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Tendulkar as a World Cup player (posts moved here)

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Sir Alex

Banned
IMO it doesn't since in the last two series we were crap and #1 in name only. It's why I make the distinction of how we are doing at the moment. Australia look to be on the rise again. Will be more clear after The Ashes and how India do in S.Africa.
The fact that Australia didn't field their best team to defend their world title is of no relevance. So you tend to select your best only for world cups and not for test series? How bizzare.

I know in your world, australia must be perpetually number 1, anything to the contrary like a test series loss or two are only exceptions to be pushed under the carpet under the excuse of not fielding best team or some crap.

Fortunately majority thinks otherwise.
 

Teja.

Global Moderator
I am not talking about Steve Waugh. And I am not ignoring Sachin's career. It's the fact that now India are #1 there is a whole different pressure to face which is something Sachin has never had to deal with. At the risk of starting a fight; the difference between Ponting and Sachin is that if Sachin scored runs; regardless of how the team did, he is ok. If Ponting scores runs and loses a match; people want his head. India weren't expected to win match in and out like Australia have.
That's more to do with Ponting being captain of his team. If a team fails, the captain will obviously be criticized.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
The fact that Australia didn't field their best team to defend their world title is of no relevance. So you tend to select your best only for world cups and not for test series? How bizzare.
Um, no, what are you talking about?

I said apart from the WC, in ODIs, Aussies don't really care about any other series.

In tests, when you faced us last, we had an exodus of players, and were #1 in name only. It may have been our best team at the time, but it clearly wasn't a great one.

The rest of your post is garbage, per usual.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
I am not talking about Steve Waugh. And I am not ignoring Sachin's career
Of course you are not because the stats are not in your favor.


It's the fact that now India are #1 there is a whole different pressure to face which is something Sachin has never had to deal with.
It is NOT a fact. It is your opinion that SRT will be under a different pressure because suddenly India are No 1. If at all there is a pressure it is on Dhoni not on SRT.

IMO for the first time in his career, SRT is playing without any pressure, while all these accolades mean a lot to him, he is under no pressure to deliver. To me and to most Indian fans that I talk to, we just don't care how well he does, we are just happy that he is there. He has surpassed all the expectations from us already and right now in the mode of 'just enjoy till he lasts' .


At the risk of starting a fight; the difference between Ponting and Sachin is that is Sachin scores runs; regardless of how the team does, he is ok. If Ponting scores runs and loses a match; people want his head.
I don't know who are those people, for 10 years Ponting and Australia both failed in India, from what I remember no one asked for Ponting's head after those losses.
 
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Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
That's more to do with Ponting being captain of his team. If a team fails, the captain will obviously be criticized.
To a large extent that's true, but it also has to do with being the best batsman of his team. He is expected to pad up and win it for us above all other batsmen. If he is scoring runs when the game is settled or where they are not as important he'll not be seen in near the same light. When you're #1 it's not enough to just score runs; it's all about winning. Do you think Ponting would get near the same accolades as Chappell or Waugh if he was averaging the same and losing/drawing? I don't think so, frankly.
 

bagapath

International Captain
I said apart from the WC, in ODIs, Aussies don't really care about any other series.
I am not sure this is true ikki. even in 01 when australia won the odi series in india, steve waugh was gushing about how the world champions couldn't be beaten that easily in ODIs (and he was right). he took a lot of pride in winning that series.

several times in the recent past, the board and the players had spoken about the importance of australia winning the icc champions trophy.

the 07 triagular series between india, australia and srilanka (which india won with a little help from sachin) was the equivalent of a fight for no.1 title. and it happened right in australia's backyard. ponting's team would have loved to have won that especially since that was the last time the triangular touranament would be held in the australian season and also because it came immediately after an acrimonious test series. it was as sweet a win for india and sachin as the 98 sharjah tournament and the 01 tournament in england. WC is the biggest no doubt, but every good team cares about every tournament it enters. and australia is nothing if it is not the greatest fighting unit on the cricket field.
 
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Sir Alex

Banned
I am not totally sure about the points system; but AFAIK the points between 1, 2 and 3 are little. If Australia were to win are you saying we wouldn't be #1?



We'll have to see how you guys do in S.Africa but I don't put a whole lot of stock in them TBF. IMO the Australia of now is superior. At our weakest in the past decade we won an away series against them as they beat us here. They were probably stronger then too.
If Australia has a chance to go up and become no.1 in test rankings as a result of beating india, then it indeed is a championship clash. Right now, I don't think that can happen. Please improve your rankings and let's see about scheduling one.

Ha ha. Beating west indies and pakistan, that too after surviving many a scare at home and beating an out of sorts new zealand makes you a better team?
 
but ikki has a very good point. sachin's record as a world cup player will be complete with a title. his standing in tests ODIs is secure already.

here is a team of ODI greats who dont have world cup winner's medal in their kitties.

tendulkar
saeed anwar
lara
g.chappell
kallis
flintoff
boucher (wk)
marshall
saqlain
ambrose
waqar

to complete the 14: donald, pollock and sehwag

Good team.Would maybe have Hadlee in there as well and Cairns ahead of Flintoff.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
but ikki has a very good point. sachin's record as a world cup player will be complete with a title. his standing in tests ODIs is secure already.
The suggestion that it makes him lesser batsman is the point of this thread.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Of course you are not because the stats are not in your favor.
I didn't compare Waugh as a ODI to Tendulkar. I think the comparison is stupid. What are you talking about?


It is NOT a fact. It is your opinion that SRT will be under a different pressure because suddenly India are No 1. If at all there is a pressure it is on Dhoni not on SRT.
I said it is a fact that India are #1. That's true. Of course it is my opinion that the pressure of being #1 is different. What else could it be?

I don't know who are those people, for 10 years Ponting and Australia both failed in India, from what I remember no one asked for Ponting's head after those losses.
Because beating India away was never a barrier to us becoming #1. Do you think there was a national holiday because we finally did it?

Apart from the Ashes, I don't think there would be any undue importance put on a usually inconsequential series. As long as Australia won against everybody else - teams that were even better than India - and stayed #1, that was all that mattered.
 
Even if India fails to win the next world cup with Tendulkar in the side,I do not think it will take anything away from Sachin's legacy.Of course he himself would love to be part of the world cup winning team and he even mentioned that he would swap his 2003 MoS award for another shot at the Aussies.You can blame Sachin all you want for not delivering in the final but 360 against Mcgrath is pretty close to impossible.Ganguly made a huge mistake by fielding first then
 

Sir Alex

Banned
I am not talking about Steve Waugh. And I am not ignoring Sachin's career. It's the fact that now India are #1 there is a whole different pressure to face which is something Sachin has never had to deal with. At the risk of starting a fight; the difference between Ponting and Sachin is that if Sachin scored runs; regardless of how the team did, he is ok. If Ponting scores runs and loses a match; people want his head. India weren't expected to win match in and out like Australia have.
Yeah, like Sachin losing his captaincy post the disastrous tour of Australia albeit being man of series and having to captain the worst team ever post perhaps Independence.

Or Ponting still being captain despite failing to retain ashes twice in a row, losing comprehensively to india, and suffering a home series loss in ages.
 

Migara

Cricketer Of The Year
Of course, if anyone deserved it it was only Jayasurya in that tournament. I don't recollect saying anything suggesting he didn't.
And Jayasuriya flopped in the final too. That did not made him not to be regarded as the man of the tournament. Same thing happened in 2003 too.
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
Ikki I really don't think the pressure argument applies to Tendulkar, the guy has been under the whole weight of India for such a very long time now. Its one of the reasons I consider him such a huge success, being able to cope with the tide of a whole gigantic nations thoughts and feelings.
 

Teja.

Global Moderator
To a large extent that's true, but it also has to do with being the best batsman of his team. He is expected to pad up and win it for us above all other batsmen. If he is scoring runs when the game is settled or where they are not as important he'll not be seen in near the same light. When you're #1 it's not enough to just score runs; it's all about winning. Do you think Ponting would get near the same accolades as Chappell or Waugh if he was averaging the same and losing/drawing? I don't think so, frankly.
That is true to an extent, but the difference my friend, is that through the 90s(Sachin's best decade) SRT never had the support from either bowling or batting to force more wins.

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...panmin1=1+jan+1990;spanval1=span;team=6;templ

If scoring at 55 against the best team in the world in your late teens and early twenties when only one other person in your team is averaging above forty against them and you have a pathetic bowling attack is not pressure, I don't know what pressure is.
 

Migara

Cricketer Of The Year
Any way no point in arguing. SRT can never be as good as ponting or Bevan according to some.
 

bagapath

International Captain
but all this talk is from the distant past ikki. sachin is playing for the no.1 team now. his contribution to his team becoming no.1 is very significant. he is also the best batsman in the world, in all formats. ponting took up the captaincy of the no.1 team in the world as the no.1 batsman on planet. his team is no.3 now and he is still in the top 5 batsmen in the world but nowhere near the top spot. that is the reality. one has worked towards the top. the other one, by your logic, couldnt handle the pressure of being on top.

lets get back to sachin and the WC.

every great WC batter has a defining innings in his kitty: viv, ponting, aravinda and gilly all played their best knocks in the finals. sachin, waugh and gooch played it before the finals. the fact that waugh's team won the tournament makes his knock even more special. similarly sachin's wc record will get more accolades if india lifts the cup. if not, it will be his final frontier and add a different kind of glow.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
I said it is a fact that India are #1.
This is what you said :-

"It's the fact that now India are #1 there is a whole different pressure to face which is something Sachin has never had to deal with."

It is so hard for some folks to not own up to what they said 5 minutes ago.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
If Australia has a chance to go up and become no.1 in test rankings as a result of beating india, then it indeed is a championship clash. Right now, I don't think that can happen. Please improve your rankings and let's see about scheduling one.

Ha ha. Beating west indies and pakistan, that too after surviving many a scare at home and beating an out of sorts new zealand makes you a better team?
We're only 5 points behind you guys in rating. I am pretty sure a series win would see the crown change hands.

As I said, we'll know more after the Ashes. Right now, we look too good. I can't wait for the next series between India and Australia.

The suggestion that it makes him lesser batsman is the point of this thread.
Not really. It's more like he'd be seen in an even better light if he did win it. I can only speak for myself, but I have him 3rd after Bevan and Viv in ODIs as a batsman. If he were to win the WC I'd have him as #1.

I am not sure this is true ikki. even in 01 when australia won the odi series in india, steve waugh was gushing about how the world champions couldn't be beaten that easily in ODIs (and he was right). he took a lot of pride in winning that series.

several times in the recent past, the board and the players had spoken about the importance of australia winning the icc champions trophy.

the 07 triagular series between india, australia and srilanka (which india won with a little help from sachin) was the equivalent of a fight for no.1 title. and it happened right in australia's backyard. ponting's team would have loved to have won that especially since that was the last time the triangular touranament would be held in the australian season and also because it came immediately after an acrimonious test series. it was as sweet a win for india and sachin as the 98 sharjah tournament and the 01 tournament in england. WC is the biggest no doubt, but every good team cares about every tournament it enters. and australia is nothing if it is not the greatest fighting unit on the cricket field.
I wouldn't pay much attention to pre-series hype. They're paid to make the clashes more interesting than they are. But I know most fans, which would translate to the players as well, really, don't care about any other ODI series really bar the WC. If you recall, we lost the Chappell-Hadlee trophy just prior to the WC 3-0, lost our #1 rank in ODIs and nobody gave a hoot. Ponting was even rested in that tourney for the WC. In the WC however, we dominated. We've not lost a WC game for over a decade.
 
And the same Aussies who are blowing the Bevan and Ponting and Waugh trumpet would probably not rate someone like De Silva higher then any of the above. De Silva scored one of the most majestic centuries in a high pressure final against Mc/W. Best ODI innings I saw in a mile.Ponting's innings batting first against Srinath and Nehra doesn't compare :laugh:

If India manage to win the next WC with Tendulkar in it, the objection will be : oh but the world cup was in the subcontinent.Mcgrath,Warne and Waugh's uncle didn't play etc
 
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