Rank the 4 great all rounders of the 1980s from best to worst

[Fusion]

Captaincy is easy when you have a bowling attack at your disposal. Captaincy is damn tough when you're the only bowler of any standing your team has. Imran's performances in the battles with the WI were outstanding. Kapil was equally, if not more outstanding. He was the only one to not suffer a significant fall in performance when in the Lions' own den, where one doesn't have the home umpire advantage *cough*. As for Botham, WAG. Obviously decided it would be worth a chuckle to show up as a specialist fielder against the #1 team.

You make it sound like all you have to do as Captain is show up and you’re guaranteed success as long as you have talent around you. If that was the case, then any number of Pakistani Captains should’ve been more successful than Imran. Pakistan had a more devastating attack in the 90’s (probably their best attack ever) than in the 80’s, yet ask the 500 people who captained Pakistan during that period how that worked out for them. It’s not easy to get the best out of a team like Pakistan. Also, Imran was essentially a one man attack during those 80’s battles with the Windies. Since you are pointing at the bowling talent that Imran supposedly took advantage of as Captain to succeed against the Windies, let’s break down the numbers more deeply, shall we?

During the 80’s, the period in question and when he was at his peak, Imran played 3 series against the West Indies. Here’s his cumulative record from those series:

filtered 1980-1988 10 409 123 27.26 1 51 7/80 16.68 5 2

In the 1980 series, Imran had Sarafaraz as his new ball partner. Sarfaraz played two of the test matches, took a grand total of 2 wickets, and finished with a 39.50 average. Hardly the kind of support that would’ve allowed Imran to coast through the series. Imran’s other support in that series came from the spinners, but can we agree that whatever talent Imran had at his disposal in the spin department could be matched, if not exceeded, by what Kapil had at his disposal?

In the 1986 series, where Imran averaged an astonishing 11.05, he had Wasim as his new ball partner. Wasim essentially played in only one of the 3 matches. He was fully fit to play in the first one and had a great game. But Wasim only bowled 9 overs in the second match, and was out completely in the 3rd. Again, Imran was basically the lone spearhead when it came to the pace attack. Imran had 2 fivers to go with that outstanding bowling average in that series.

The last series of the 80’s was in 1988, and in WI. Imran averaged 18.08 with the ball and again took 2 five-for’s. He once again had Akram as his new ball partner. Akram played all 3 games this time, and averaged 29.00 while taking 11 wickets (compared with Imran’s 23). I’ll concede that here Imran received excellent support from his pace partner, but he still clearly outperformed him.

As for the “home umpire” argument, please let’s not go down that route. It’s not like things were that much better in India. You telling me that Kapil didn’t benefit from that home field advantage? Also, Imran averaged 18.08 at WI during the 80’s, so it’s not like his stats went completely the other way when he toured.

Anyway, I layed out all this to demontrate that Imran didn’t have that great an advantage as compared to Kapil when it comes to bowling. So please don’t use that as a way to downgrade his success as Captain against the Windies. His record against them is what adds to his legend even more.

 

[thierry henry]

Serious question- how come no-one ever speaks of Imran in the same breath as Marshall or Hadlee purely as a bowler?

It seems that over almost the entire decade of the 80s he was averaging something silly like 17, which would surely make him comparable to (or better than) just about anyone as a pure bowler?

It also gets to me how people say Botham deserves the number 1 spot because he was so amazing at his peak- it certainly seems to me that Imran's peak was as impressive as anyones.

 

[Fusion]

Serious question- how come no-one ever speaks of Imran in the same breath as Marshall or Hadlee purely as a bowler?

It seems that over almost the entire decade of the 80s he was averaging something silly like 17, which would surely make him comparable to (or better than) just about anyone as a pure bowler?

It also gets to me how people say Botham deserves the number 1 spot because he was so amazing at his peak- it certainly seems to me that Imran's peak was as impressive as anyones.

Agreed completely. Imran to me definately belongs in the top 5 bowlers of all-time. When he was in his prime and injury free, it’s amazing the numbers he put up. The guy actually missed close to 3 years to injury or he could’ve put up even better numbers. I have no doubt he’d be in the 400 wicket club if it wasn’t for all the time he missed.

 

[MrIncredible]

Serious question- how come no-one ever speaks of Imran in the same breath as Marshall or Hadlee purely as a bowler?

It seems that over almost the entire decade of the 80s he was averaging something silly like 17, which would surely make him comparable to (or better than) just about anyone as a pure bowler?

It also gets to me how people say Botham deserves the number 1 spot because he was so amazing at his peak- it certainly seems to me that Imran's peak was as impressive as anyones.

Of course Imran is on par with the Marshalls and Hadlees of his time. Imo he is just slightly below Marshall (never followed Hadlee that closely tbh). His peak was probably higher but Marshall was far more consistent in more places and vs more opponents. Case in point Marshall only averages over 32 away to NZ in a series he was injured. other wise he averages below 25 home and away vs everyone. Unmatched in test history

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Agreed completely. Imran to me definately belongs in the top 5 bowlers of all-time. When he was in his prime and injury free, it’s amazing the numbers he put up. The guy actually missed close to 3 years to injury or he could’ve put up even better numbers. I have no doubt he’d be in the 400 wicket club if it wasn’t for all the time he missed.

That's a big call man, top 5 of all-time ? He was undoubtedly great but I don't think he's even Pakistan's best bowler. I'd have both the Ws over him.

 

[G.I.Joe]

You make it sound like all you have to do as Captain is show up and you’re guaranteed success as long as you have talent around you. If that was the case, then any number of Pakistani Captains should’ve been more successful than Imran. Pakistan had a more devastating attack in the 90’s (probably their best attack ever) than in the 80’s, yet ask the 500 people who captained Pakistan during that period how that worked out for them. It’s not easy to get the best out of a team like Pakistan. Also, Imran was essentially a one man attack during those 80’s battles with the Windies. Since you are pointing at the bowling talent that Imran supposedly took advantage of as Captain to succeed against the Windies, let’s break down the numbers more deeply, shall we?

During the 80’s, the period in question and when he was at his peak, Imran played 3 series against the West Indies. Here’s his cumulative record from those series:

filtered 1980-1988 10 409 123 27.26 1 51 7/80 16.68 5 2

In the 1980 series, Imran had Sarafaraz as his new ball partner. Sarfaraz played two of the test matches, took a grand total of 2 wickets, and finished with a 39.50 average. Hardly the kind of support that would’ve allowed Imran to coast through the series. Imran’s other support in that series came from the spinners, but can we agree that whatever talent Imran had at his disposal in the spin department could be matched, if not exceeded, by what Kapil had at his disposal?

In the 1986 series, where Imran averaged an astonishing 11.05, he had Wasim as his new ball partner. Wasim essentially played in only one of the 3 matches. He was fully fit to play in the first one and had a great game. But Wasim only bowled 9 overs in the second match, and was out completely in the 3rd. Again, Imran was basically the lone spearhead when it came to the pace attack. Imran had 2 fivers to go with that outstanding bowling average in that series.

The last series of the 80’s was in 1988, and in WI. Imran averaged 18.08 with the ball and again took 2 five-for’s. He once again had Akram as his new ball partner. Akram played all 3 games this time, and averaged 29.00 while taking 11 wickets (compared with Imran’s 23). I’ll concede that here Imran received excellent support from his pace partner, but he still clearly outperformed him.

As for the “home umpire” argument, please let’s not go down that route. It’s not like things were that much better in India. You telling me that Kapil didn’t benefit from that home field advantage? Also, Imran averaged 18.08 at WI during the 80’s, so it’s not like his stats went completely the other way when he toured.

Anyway, I layed out all this to demontrate that Imran didn’t have that great an advantage as compared to Kapil when it comes to bowling. So please don’t use that as a way to downgrade his success as Captain against the Windies. His record against them is what adds to his legend even more.

The bolded part has nothing to do with what I said. I mentioned the umpiring at home, not the surfaces, unless you used the word field as a broad umbrella term. Anyway, the stats away from home eliminate that factor. People here constantly talk about judging contemporary players by their performances in Australia as a definitive critereon for judging them (see Yousuf, Kallis, Donald etc). So I'm talking about the performances of these all rounders in the home of the best team of their time.

I see Imran's overall stats against the WI, and being unaware of the circumstances of every game Imran's played in, I take your word that there have been occasions where Imran has played a lone hand. But then, thats how the whole of Kapil's career has been. He literally had no support ever, until Srinath showed up towards the end for a handful of games. He's done as well as, and IMO better, than all the others against the WI, he's put in greater performances than any other all rounder in leading his team to a WC victory. I don't need to be told he wasn't as good a captain as a guy with much much better resources at his disposal.

I don't want to belittle anyone, but rather to point out how shockingly cliched and stale many of the pre conceptions held on this forum are. People here constantly treat Kapil as an also-ran in these discussions. Remarkable consistency seems to be under rated here. But guess what? This boringly consistent cricketer has achieved the sort of peaks any all rounder would die for. He's done more than any of the others in winning his team the top ODI prize, and he's done better than the rest against the top Test team of his time too. He outlived them all without breaking down, to claim more wickets than even any pure bowler had, and to score more runs than most batsmen manage in their careers, leave alone the other three all rounders. The four of them were called the 4 great all rounders with good reason, not the two great all rounders, the also-ran and the guy who could barely hold a bat.

 

[MrIncredible]

That's a big call man, top 5 of all-time ? He was undoubtedly great but I don't think he's even Pakistan's best bowler. I'd have both the Ws over him.

Never and not from a stats pov. Imran averaged less than both but had the worst sr of the 3. However Imran was good/great in more places than either of Wasim/Waqar.

Last but not least Imran was exceptional vs the best batting lineup of his time where as Akram was good vs Oz and Waqar was poor.

 

[Ikki]

Serious question- how come no-one ever speaks of Imran in the same breath as Marshall or Hadlee purely as a bowler?

It seems that over almost the entire decade of the 80s he was averaging something silly like 17, which would surely make him comparable to (or better than) just about anyone as a pure bowler?

It also gets to me how people say Botham deserves the number 1 spot because he was so amazing at his peak- it certainly seems to me that Imran's peak was as impressive as anyones.

Probably because of how he started off. I too underrated him but looking at the numbers in the 80s he's probably the best of the lot. When you look at how he did against the WIndies it is even more impressive.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Never and not from a stats pov. Imran averaged less than both but had the worst sr of the 3. However Imran was good/great in more places than either of Wasim/Waqar.

Last but not least Imran was exceptional vs the best batting lineup of his time where as Akram was good vs Oz and Waqar was poor.

Donald has a better bowling average than Imran, is he better ? I rate 4 bowlers from the last 2 decades better than Imran, feel free to disagree -

1. McGrath
2. Ambrose
3. Wasim Akram
4. Waqar

 

[Ikki]

Never and not from a stats pov. Imran averaged less than both but had the worst sr of the 3. However Imran was good/great in more places than either of Wasim/Waqar.

Last but not least Imran was exceptional vs the best batting lineup of his time where as Akram was good vs Oz and Waqar was poor.

For a time WIndies were the best batting team and both Ws did great against them too.

 

[MrIncredible]

When the Ws did well vs the WI (early 90s) there was no Lloyd, spent Viv, spent greenidge, etc hardly comparable to Wi circa 80s.

 

[Uppercut]

Serious question- how come no-one ever speaks of Imran in the same breath as Marshall or Hadlee purely as a bowler?

It seems that over almost the entire decade of the 80s he was averaging something silly like 17, which would surely make him comparable to (or better than) just about anyone as a pure bowler?

It also gets to me how people say Botham deserves the number 1 spot because he was so amazing at his peak- it certainly seems to me that Imran's peak was as impressive as anyones.

I completely agree. I think it's hard to even conceive of an all-rounder who was THAT good at bowling and so good at batting.

I put him fourth in my all-time list. He should probably have been third ahead of McGrath- but I'm letting my personal opinion of McGrath get in the way .

 

[GIMH]

how about the average rating for the career? That will put and end to the discussion.

 

[Fusion]

The bolded part has nothing to do with what I said. I mentioned the umpiring at home, not the surfaces, unless you used the word field as a broad umbrella term.

I did mean home umpiring by that comment, just used home “field” advantage as a joke. Anyway, you got what I was getting at.

I don't want to belittle anyone, but rather to point out how shockingly cliched and stale many of the pre conceptions held on this forum are. People here constantly treat Kapil as an also-ran in these discussions. Remarkable consistency seems to be under rated here. But guess what? This boringly consistent cricketer has achieved the sort of peaks any all rounder would die for. He's done more than any of the others in winning his team the top ODI prize, and he's done better than the rest against the top Test team of his time too. He outlived them all without breaking down, to claim more wickets than even any pure bowler had, and to score more runs than most batsmen manage in their careers, leave alone the other three all rounders. The four of them were called the 4 great all rounders with good reason, not the two great all rounders, the also-ran and the guy who could barely hold a bat.

I don’t think it’s a slight to Kapil to be ranked behind Imran and Botham. Just because he’s being ranked behind them doesn’t mean people think he’s a crap AR. You may disagree with the ranking, and that’s fine. It’s all just each person’s opinion of course. Kapil’s longevity is definitely a credit to him. He kept himself in better shape than Botham, and outlasted Imran as well. However, many of the achievements you state for him (most wickets ever as a bowler, runs as an AR) came because he continued to play long past his prime. He may have gotten more wickets as a result, but they came at a cost to his overall average and strike rate. I applaud him for the feats, but I don’t necessarily think it proves him to be the best amongst the AR’s. Like I said, it was a case of him outlasting others physically, not exceeding them in terms of talent.

 

[MrIncredible]

Donald has a better bowling average than Imran, is he better ? I rate 4 bowlers from the last 2 decades better than Imran, feel free to disagree -

1. McGrath
2. Ambrose
3. Wasim Akram
4. Waqar

Mcgrath and Ambrose maybe. But the other 2 really?? Its not just average Imran averages under 30 everywhere vs everyone home and away except Nz at home (30.07). Imran was far more versatile in more places than those 2. More to come soon

 

[zaremba]

Imran
Hadlee
Botham
Kapil

Botham was a more rounded all-rounder than Hadlee (in every sense) but Hadlee was an absolutely outstanding fast bowler and for me, that counts for much more than a bit of extra batting ability.

Hadlee's batting is under-rated anyhow. He averaged 38 with the bat for Notts playing on green tops (tailor made for his bowling of course) in the days when there were a lot of world class quick bowlers in county cricket, and plenty of English seamers capable of exploiting that sort of pitch.

Like Uppercut, I don't know quite how to rate Beefy. If he'd retired in the early- to mid-80s we'd be talking about one of the greatest players of all time. But he didn't and therefore we're not. Plus he's a pillock.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Botham is still one of the greatest players of all time, and going on past his prime doesn't alter what he achieved earlier (apart from statzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzwise).

 

[BoyBrumby]

Inclined to agree with LT here. Feels wrong to downgrade a chap's achievements because he played on after his peak. In Botham's case he was but a mere shadow (albeit a massively portly one) of his (slightly) leaner and younger self, but he was still be best all-rounder available. The search for the next Botham became a cliche in itself, in fact.

See also Waqar Younis. At one point he'd taken over a 150 test wickets for less than 19 apiece. If (God forbid) he'd stepped out in front of that hypothetical bus then he'd probably be remembered as the best ever. Because he had the gumption to come back after injury (and perform very decently, if not quite at the superhuman levels he'd managed before) he gets marked down because his career figures took a hit.

 

[JBH001]

Agreed. A bit bothered by some of these posts against Beefy because they seem to denigrate the man and his achievements (pillock though he is). I have nothing against Imran, hell, I rate him above Beefy over the decade, but it seems to me that some of the pro Imran, pro Kapil, or pro Hadlee lobby feel it necessary to tear down Beefy to raise "their" man up. I dont think that necessary - nor is it particularly attractive.

Also, with regards to Waqar and come to that, peaks. I would have no objection someone claiming that Waqar was the greatest fast bowler of all time based on his achievements from 1990 - 1994 where he took over 200 wickets in less than 40 tests, and if that is where his career ended. That would be perfectly fine. After all, Barnes is rated on 27 tests, Grimmett on 37, and O'Reilly on 33 (?). 40 tests and/or 200 wickets is a good enough sample to count as a peak - or, for that matter, a career. At the same though, if longevity is a criteria then that is fair enough too as long as the criteria is clear and consistently held.

 

[Black_Warrior]

And btw does the fact that Imran and Kapil captained their sides to world cup wins count for something ?

If we are talking about their greatness as a player/sportsman etc, then yes captaincy and World Cup wins should count.
But if we are simply talking about their ability as an allrounder, focusing on their talent, cricketing skills and cricketing achievements as an allrounder, then I dont think that should count.
Tendulkar and Steve Waugh are both great batsmen, averaging over 50, but you wont count Waugh's excellent captaincy record against Tendulkar's poor one to say Waugh is a better batsman.