*Official* English Football Season 2015-16

[sledger]

Why didn't Real or Barca try and sign Gerrard?

All of the top Italian clubs of the day - that's Juve, AC, Inter, Parma, Lazio, Roma, Napoli and Sampdoria, for the record - were loaded and fighting over a select band of world class players. The reason Gascoigne ended up at Lazio over an AC Milan or Juventus was entirely down to the 3 foreigners rule.

And he wound up back at the biggest club in Britain at the time when he left Italy.

Also worth bearing in mind that the status of Lazio at the time was about a million times greater than what it is now.

 

[Uppercut]

Yeah, I think so. I think the general consensus at the time was that he didn't really have the pace for it.

IIRC there were a few games where he was tried in the center as well, but nothing much really came of that either.

Yeah his pace would be a concern although you would generally say pace is just as important for a right winger. Also it's sometimes forgotten how good his engine was early in his career.

I don't know whether playing him as a WB was a good move at the time. But I feel like, with the way the game's changed, if someone with his skillset cropped up today they'd be a FB or WB for sure. Would basically become a much better Leighton Baines.

 

[sledger]

Yeah his pace would be a concern although you would generally say pace is just as important for a right winger. Also it's sometimes forgotten how good his engine was early in his career.

I don't know whether playing him as a WB was a good move at the time. But I feel like, with the way the game's changed, if someone with his skillset cropped up today they'd be a FB or WB for sure. Would basically become a much better Leighton Baines.

Yeah, there was no doubting his general work-rate. And he wasn't a slouch in terms of pace by any means tbf to him, just not especially quick either.

I think the reason why his overall lack of pace was never really a problem though was because, to me at least, he was never really a winger, strictly speaking - he was never especially skillful, mercurial, quick or good at dribbling etc... He was very much a right sided midfielder for me - one that relied on very precise medium to long distance passing and delivery and hard work. You made a good post about this a few years ago iirc, but he was basically an excellent player in a role that just doesn't really exist anymore, not at the top level anyway.

 

[wpdavid]

Yeah if you do a composite 04/96 team you are spoiled for choice in the midfield. I choose 04 because i think that's the tournament the Golden Generation played its best football in, which does rid me of Ferdinand as an option unfortunately.

I'll have a go

Seaman

G Neville
Adams
Terry
Cole

Beckham
Ince
Gerrard
McManaman

Rooney
Shearer

That was way harder than I thought

Campbell should be in there? Probably the better CB over Terry circa 04. But **** it

Gerrard over Gascoigne I went back and forth over. Ultimately it was Furball that clinched it for me. Gerrard was always maligned as being not as good for country as club, but with an Ince next to him that wouldn't have been true. And I rated his England career anyway. Did Liverpool ever play them two together? Ince was spent by then anyway. Scholes is unfortunate too; I've no wish to reignite that debate, so let's all agree to disagree on that one in advance.

I fully expected to pick Owen but I remembered Rooney in those Euros. Shearer should have come out of retirement for it (he'd had a great season) and we could have had him coming on instead of Darius Vassell

Anyway I'd probably do it differently tomorrow. The centre backs and midfield are the ones troubling me most.

Ince may well be the key performer, actually. One abiding memory of 2004 is the golden generation of midfielders completely going missing against France and Portugal, which would have been a lot less likely with Ince in the side. That leaves you choosing one or two, depending on formation, from Gazza, Gerrard and Scholes. And I suppose Scholes doesn't count because SGE thought it a good idea to play him on the left in that tournament.

Did Beckham actually do a thing in 2004? You could make a case for playing McManaman and Anderton in the wider positions.
But that probably leaves us a bit short in midfield, especially with the 1996 vintage of Gazza.

As was obvious at the time, we really need(ed) something other than classic 4-4-2 to make the most of the players at our disposal.

 

[Furball]

Venables played 4-3-2-1 did he not?

There's literally no-one I can think of for the left of a traditional 4-4-2.

 

[sledger]

Venables played 4-3-2-1 did he not?

There's literally no-one I can think of for the left of a traditional 4-4-2.

Yeah, Venables was pretty much the first exponent of the so-called Christmas Tree formation I think.

I suppose the most obvious option for the left of a traditional 4-4-2 from the 96 squad would have been McManaman. Would have been a bit of a fudge, as it was far from his best position, but he was probably versatile enough to do it, and I think he played there for Liverpool a fair bit.

 

[wpdavid]

Venables played 4-3-2-1 did he not?

There's literally no-one I can think of for the left of a traditional 4-4-2.

Yes, quite possibly. And I think any attempt at a 2004 & 1996 composite side would have to do the same, unless Anderton gets the gig.
I suppose I was thinking of the SGE / Golden generation years more than 1996.

 

[sledger]

Darren Anderton was never any good though. One of the players from that era that most definitely was overrated.

Edit: Steve Stone, on the other hand. He probably could have done a decent job on the left.

 

[GIMH]

Stone was in no way better than Anderton. Only a g00ner would spout such drivel

 

[sledger]

Anderton was complete pony.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

Stone was in no way better than Anderton. Only a g00ner would spout such drivel

Anderton was much like Redknapp and now Wilshere. You knew there was a good player there but getting them on the park was more often than not the problem not their ability.

 

[duffer]

So reports saying Vardy's staying at Leicester. Oh well, let's hope we have other targets.

 

[Furball]

So reports saying Vardy's staying at Leicester. Oh well, let's hope we have other targets.

Disappointing from an Arsenal point of view but I'm quite glad that one of their main players isn't just pissing off.

 

[grecian]

Anderton was much like Redknapp and now Wilshere. You knew there was a good player there but getting them on the park was more often than not the problem not their ability.

Not really sure that Redknapp was ever a good player TBH, fit or not. Anderton like Trevor Sinclair, and Joe Cole all tried on the left for England, but it never really was their position. The famous left-sided problem. It's kinda unfair to judge these guys considering

I'm sure Beckham played well at wing-back in the qualification for the '98 world cup. Think Neville slotted into a three at the back, it was certainly pretty fluid and he was deep a lot.

 

[Furball]

Anderton was complete pony.

The old Jack Wilshere

 

[Ikki]

No, Italy in 1990's was where to go. It was THE league to play in, no ifs, no buts. It's standing was beyond the Prem now, or Barca/Real. Its the league that had Gullit, van Basten, Voller, Rijkaard, Maradona, Klinsmann, Matthaus, Brehme, Papin, Hassler all went to....Bear in mind also that each team was limited to 3 foreign players, so for :Lazio to spend £8.5m on an injured Gazza in 91 (remember, Utd broke the British transfer record by signing Andy Cole for £7m in 95....), that shows how much they valued his talents.

80's Gazza was just something else, watching him play for Newcastle is still genuinely exciting nearly 30 years later. There's a youtube video of his goals knocking about and its spectacular. As others have eluded to, there's so little pre-92 footage of English players its criminal, so we only remember Platt at Arsenal, Gazza rolling around at 'Boro, Waddle with Sheffield Wednesday, Linekar as a mythical toe-bunger from days of yore. These were truely world class players, and Gazza was the cream of them. Come Euro 96 the Gazza we saw was probably about 50% the Gazza of the 80's. There's a reason why Fergie still to this day says he's the player he's truely gutted about missing out on, he was natural talent in abundance.

Sorry, but Gerrard isn't fit to lace his boots, and neither is Scholes really. In English football the only person I could possibly put above him in sheer electric skill on the pitch is Best.

Italy was where to go above all other clubs, if you were talking about Milan or Juve - you know, top Italian clubs. When Lazio went for Gazza, they were basically a mid-table club that had a lot of money. Even then, if Real/Barca offered you a lot of money and Lazio did...you knew where you were going. Do you really think going to Lazio was a bigger move for a player career-wise or playing in, like Cryuff's Dream Team?

It's kind of like how the EPL would basically be your go-to destination right now unless you're playing for one of the top clubs (Bayern, Barca, etc) around the world. The limited foreign players rule actually shows how far down the top Italian clubs' list of preferences were when given a choice between alternatives around the world and Gazza that he went to Lazio at that time. In comparison, more or less every top team in the world wanted the aforementioned 00s midfielders, not just mid-table clubs that were rich comparative to their European counterparts. There's a reason top clubs that could have won the European cup during that time weren't in for Gazza and that he didn't play in Europe IIRC until Rangers and barely at that. Yet you're trying to compare him to guys who were instrumental in their teams winning the thing and contributing for years. I don't get how this is simply ignored. Ferguson wanted him when he had talent and hadn't wasted away his career, but do you really think Gazza was gonna last long under Fergie? When he wanted to go years later it was Ferguson that didn't want him.

I didn't comment on 80s Gazza because I was too young whereas I was old enough to remember his career during his move to Italy and afterwards - enough so that I feel confident enough on talking about him and his playing style. Trying to look at it objectively, I'd say there was a season or so where you could really argue peak Gascoigne was an equal for the midfielders of the 00s that we've mentioned. When you look at it as a whole, it isn't even close. He was an impetuous talent who didn't kick on from his bright beginnings, because he didn't develop as a player and he was sabotaging himself through his lifestyle (lots of injures too).

I could make similar comparisons with the other players you've named and the 00s/10s players but I cbf to be honest. It's the kind of phenomena you find in other national team player discussions where players who had inferior careers are held up by their countrymen because they did well for their national team at times. Which is a different level of endearment, well deserved or not. There's definitely also a soft spot people had for Gazza because of his personality that tints the revisionism.

The rest of your post I agree with and is common knowledge for anyone who even remotely followed football in the 90s.

Why didn't Real or Barca try and sign Gerrard?

It's fairly well known that Real (when Mourinho and Ancelotti were there) tried to sign Gerrard. Barca there were rumours but basically every top team in the world wanted him. Ancelotti just the other week mentioned the one player he regrets not ever getting was Gerrard - he tried to get him at Milan as well. Ferguson tried to sign him 3 times. Even in his advanced years, the transfer window before Bayern won the treble they came in for him.

You're talking about a different level of player here.

And he wound up back at the biggest club in Britain at the time when he left Italy.

---

As for a combined line-up; I'd take Seaman, Adams and Shearer from those teams but would basically stick to the 00s more or less for everyone else.

 

[Furball]

Laugh all you want, love how you missef out the 'at the time' bit which completely changes the context of what I said. Rangers are a massive club and had the financial muscle at the time to blow any other club in the UK out the water.

 

[Ikki]

Also in slightly more relevant news, pls Aubameyang, pls.

Would be perfect for Pep's system.

Laugh all you want, love how you missef out the 'at the time' bit which completely changes the context of what I said. Rangers are a massive club and had the financial muscle at the time to blow any other club in the UK out the water.

They were bigger then and could compete better, but was one of the best midfielders in the world going to Rangers if they had a choice? No. And ironically, famously, before he went to Rangers Gazza made a failed attempt to get Ferguson to sign him.

At the end of the day, you can't divorce mentality with footballing ability and judging a player for what he was for a handful of years and ignoring the rest of his career seems convenient. Anyway, this was a nice discussion for what it was minus the personal attacks.

 

[grecian]

So apparently Leicester have bid 20 million for Deeney and Watford have turned it down. Really makes you wonder where the market will go in the UK, nobody needs to sell, and the chances of you losing your Prem place, if you lose key players means it's just not economically sensible to do so.

 

[cpr]

Have to point out that Cruyff's 'Dream team' was only in its humble beginnings back then, when Gazza agreed his move to Lazio they'd not even won the league, let alone the European Cup. Spanish football really was on a downer at that point, the midst of a 10 year period where it just didn't offer the top players anything. Juve weren't a top Italian club at the time either, and were around the same level as Lazio most of the time until the mid 90s (it was right in the middle of their 10 year title 'drought' - put in ' ' because I am talking to a Liverpool fan, after all ), though the squad clearly had some immense attacking talent around 91 - probably enough to make Gazza a luxury - it wasn't winning much. Obviously Milan were the choice team, by far and away the best in the world at the time, but as stated earlier, their 3 foreigners were Gullit, Rijkaard and van Basten, there was no room for another huge name overseas player at that point, and I'm not going to venture that Gazza should've muscled one of them out. Likewise Inter had Matthaus, Brehme and Klinsmann - all 3 WC winners (teams liked to have their 3 foreigners from the same nation it seems!)


Comparing modern midfielders and the 'top clubs' wanting them to players like Gazza/Platt et al is unfair, because your Real/Barca of the last 15 years can fill a squad with foreign stars and not worry about the cost, back in 91 that was impossible due to foreigner rules and teams simply did not have the money coming in to do it. I mean, for comparison, Gazza cost £8.5m, only a year earlier Man Utd as an entire club was on the verge of being sold for £10m. Again, to point out that Gazza's transfer was more than Coles record move 5 years later, and it was only Shearer's move to Newcastle that set the bar higher.