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NZ's best ever ODI batsman

Who is NZ's best ever ODI batsman?

  • Taylor

    Votes: 4 16.7%
  • Turner

    Votes: 4 16.7%
  • Crowe

    Votes: 7 29.2%
  • Astle

    Votes: 8 33.3%
  • Twose

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Andrew Jones

    Votes: 1 4.2%
  • Bevan Congdon

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • AN Other

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    24

Flem274*

123/5
My side:

Turner
Astle
Crowe
Taylor
Twose
McCullum (wk)
Harris#
Hadlee
Vettori
Bond
Allott##

# World-class fielder and far more economical than Cairns with the ball - gives the attack more balance. Is still enough batting without Cairns
## Very hard to pick between Chatfield, Pringle, Allott, Larsen and Mills so picked the left-armer
Your top four is the best one we have. #5 is a bit more debateable - Twose lacks hundreds but Styris and Fleming have lower averages. All three are good picks to knock it around in the middle overs, guide a chase or ressurrect an innings.

Kane Williamson can stake a claim to the #5 spot but lacks games to his name.

The bowler spots for who gets to be third wheel to Hadlee, Bond and Vettori is tight. I'd add Morrison to the names you mentioned too.
 

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
Anyone but Andrew Jones, When he opened we had strategy discussions about how to get a quicker start. When he batted 3 and 4 we had discussions about how to be quicker in the middle overs.
Wherever he went in the line up and whenever he batted the run rate stagnated, If you asked me who our worst ODI batsman is I would name him. The only worse limited overs batsman I have seen in my time was Trevor Franklin. You have not lived until you have witnessed a Franklin List A innings, I saw him score 17 off 25 overs. Somehow auckland made 280 that day don't ask me how. Dipak Patel wouldn't look at Franklin after he got out that day,
 

Days of Grace

International Captain
Turner
Astle
Williamson
Crowe
Taylor
Cairns
McCullum (wk)
Hadlee
Vettori
Bond
Chatfield


If that's not the New Zealand alltime ODI XI now it will be in three years. 7 bowling options. Mills misses out for Chatfield since I already have Bond and Hadlee as my new ball bowlers.
 

kiwiviktor81

International Debutant
I don't think Jones was particularly slower than his top-order contemporaries. Back in his day 230 was a winning score and a guy averaging 35, even at a low strike rate, was excellent.
 

Zinzan

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Turner
Astle
Williamson
Crowe
Taylor
Cairns
McCullum (wk)
Hadlee
Vettori
Bond
Chatfield


If that's not the New Zealand alltime ODI XI now it will be in three years. 7 bowling options. Mills misses out for Chatfield since I already have Bond and Hadlee as my new ball bowlers.
Pretty much my side as well & I too was tossing up between Chats & Mills. I think Williamson with an average & near on 40 & SR of near enough 80 has already done enough to beat the likes of Fleming & Jones as a no.3.
 

wellAlbidarned

International Coach
I voted Taylor before reading the thread, but I think people have somewhat convinced me about Astle. I just remember watching him seemingly failing over and over as a kid close to when he retired which I think has clouded my opinion of him, I wasn't into cricket while he was in his prime.
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
No way. Very underutilised finisher and wicket keeper bat but that's half the problem - he's spent half his career being relatively wasted either opening or at #5 which should be the domain of the nurdler.

Excluding Turner for being an olden day player then having a bloke called Hadlee who played half his career in the 70s is just silly.

Turner and Astle have the ODI opener berths locked down.
Hadlee also played half his career in the 80s, which is a bit closer to the modern game. Hadlee is also one of the greatest bowlers of all time. He gets in.
 

Flem274*

123/5
Hadlee also played half his career in the 80s, which is a bit closer to the modern game. Hadlee is also one of the greatest bowlers of all time. He gets in.
So you've put an arbitrary cut off at 1980? Why?

Just like we don't penalise ancient test cricketers for succeeding in their own individual eras (finger spinners on uncovered wickets, I'm looking at you), we shouldn't penalise Glenn Turner or other successful ODI players because they did well in an era where the game was played differently to the current one.

Hadlee is one of the greatest bowlers of all time, and Turner was a world class opener in his time. I think you're being needlessly unfair on Turner. He excelled in the ODI situation he was presented with, and if he was born in 1985 I'm sure he would have found a way to excel in the modern game too, but that's not what he was asked to do.
 

fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
A great shame that John Reid never got to play the one day game - had he done so I'm sure he'd have been in the running
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
So you've put an arbitrary cut off at 1980? Why?

Just like we don't penalise ancient test cricketers for succeeding in their own individual eras (finger spinners on uncovered wickets, I'm looking at you), we shouldn't penalise Glenn Turner or other successful ODI players because they did well in an era where the game was played differently to the current one.

Hadlee is one of the greatest bowlers of all time, and Turner was a world class opener in his time. I think you're being needlessly unfair on Turner. He excelled in the ODI situation he was presented with, and if he was born in 1985 I'm sure he would have found a way to excel in the modern game too, but that's not what he was asked to do.
It isn't though. The ODI game was initially 60 overs and it was only really the 80s that the pajama cricket we know and love began in earnest. In one day cricket strike rate is incredibly important and there isn't enough from Turner to prove without a shadow of doubt he'd have been up to scoring at over a run a ball.

Turner is easily my first Test opener in a NZ XI. But unlike the other forms of the game, the ODI has actually changed overtime.

Think of it this way, who is the better ODI opener, Turner or Jayasuriya?
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
So you've put an arbitrary cut off at 1980? Why?

Just like we don't penalise ancient test cricketers for succeeding in their own individual eras (finger spinners on uncovered wickets, I'm looking at you), we shouldn't penalise Glenn Turner or other successful ODI players because they did well in an era where the game was played differently to the current one.

Hadlee is one of the greatest bowlers of all time, and Turner was a world class opener in his time. I think you're being needlessly unfair on Turner. He excelled in the ODI situation he was presented with, and if he was born in 1985 I'm sure he would have found a way to excel in the modern game too, but that's not what he was asked to do.
I'm not calling Turner a **** ****, I'm being fairly open with the reason I'm leaving him out. We just don't know how he'd have played in the modern ODI format.
 

Flem274*

123/5
It isn't though. The ODI game was initially 60 overs and it was only really the 80s that the pajama cricket we know and love began in earnest. In one day cricket strike rate is incredibly important and there isn't enough from Turner to prove without a shadow of doubt he'd have been up to scoring at over a run a ball.

Turner is easily my first Test opener in a NZ XI. But unlike the other forms of the game, the ODI has actually changed overtime.

Think of it this way, who is the better ODI opener, Turner or Jayasuriya?
Test cricket has changed considerably over time. From big things like covered wickets and mainstream attacking short pitched bowling to expectations of the keeper and the tail with the bat.
I'm not calling Turner a **** ****, I'm being fairly open with the reason I'm leaving him out. We just don't know how he'd have played in the modern ODI format.
It's not relevant though. We don't know how Nathan Astle would have gone in the 60 over game, or how Ross Taylor would bat on a sticky wicket. Unless you're picking a team to specifically play in 2014 then what Turner would do today means nothing.

We're discussing who the best NZ ODI batsman ever is and the only way we can judge fairly is by looking at how good they were in the situation they were presented with. Any other method means we'll be posting arguments like "for 60 overs Turner, for the 80s Crowe, for hitting at the top Astle and for nurdling spinners around in the middle overs Williamson".
 

Flem274*

123/5
Since this has morphed into a bit of an all time side yarn it's nice to see in this format we have some pace options who are genuinely good.

Hadlee 158 @ 21
Bond 147 @ 20
Mills 237 @ 26
Morrison 126 @ 27
Chatfield 140 @ 25
Allott 52 @ 23
Cairns C 201 @ 32

Can't believe Chris Cairns has the over 30, under 30 averages the wrong way round in ODIs though. I also never knew Allott played so little. Almost half his wickets came in one tournament where he was a star.

Larsen, Harris, Oram etc get their own category ftr.
 

Days of Grace

International Captain
I wonder if Astle would have a higher s/r if he played today and if his bowling would be as effective on today's NZ pitches vs. the bigger bats and more aggressive batsmen?
 

Flem274*

123/5
Did some lazy cricinfo-ing and the difference in strike rate between Astle and Turner is 4 runs per 100 balls (72 v 68).

John Wright (who played in both the Turner and Hadlee era) has a strike rate of 57, and Edgar an exhilarating 49.

Awesomely, the much maligned slow starter Martin Guptill has a career strike rate of 80. Fleming's is 71, Ryder's 95 and McCullum's strike rate opening is 91.
 
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fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I'm not calling Turner a **** ****, I'm being fairly open with the reason I'm leaving him out. We just don't know how he'd have played in the modern ODI format.
Turner was originally one of those tedious opening batsmen who barely hit the ball off the square, then he came to England and modified his game for the limited overs stuff and became very aggressive - a bit like Chris Tavare did, without perhaps being quite so moribund in the first place, so I think its a fair assumption that Turner would have honed his technique to suit the 50 and 20 over formats
 

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