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Mark Ramprakash

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
I'd be surprised if he's faced a 4-pronged attack recently that's much better to be honest - his 100 against Australia with McGrath, Gillespie and Warne was a long time ago. If county cricket is like Aussie state cricket you don't often get a complete attack that is high quality. Given they're showing signs of improvement, if they come out and bowl well this attack is in no way worse than a county attack. If they bowl poorly though then Ramprakash could fill his boots. If Mitch gets a good one going at his scone the same thing could happen :happy:

Other than his hundred, Ramprakash has scored a smattering of decent scores (as well as some low ones) at The Oval against teams with both decent and average attacks in tests. All of this was a long time ago though of course.
Yeah if they all bowl as they did at Leeds, this is a pretty good attack tbf (although short of McGrath/Warne/Gillespie/Lee in 2001).

If they bowl as they did in the 1st three Tests, however, it isn't a good attack at all; and I'd rate the bowlers as of a lower standard than many of those he's scored regular hundreds against in county cricket over the years.

Pretty big "if"...
 

Son Of Coco

Hall of Fame Member
Yeah if they all bowl as they did at Leeds, this is a pretty good attack tbf (although short of McGrath/Warne/Gillespie/Lee in 2001).

If they bowl as they did in the 1st three Tests, however, it isn't a good attack at all; and I'd rate the bowlers as of a lower standard than many of those he's scored regular hundreds against in county cricket over the years.

Pretty big "if"...
Would you rate them lower than individual bowlers he's faced though or lower than teams of bowlers he's faced in county cricket?
 

Matt79

Global Moderator
Would you rate them lower than individual bowlers he's faced though or lower than teams of bowlers he's faced in county cricket?
Gotta laugh at suggestions that the Aussie attack is at all comparable to the county attacks Ramps would be facing. Which is the county(s) that have three bowlers with test averages in the 20s, and a fourth who averages 30? Or has three bowlers who bowl sustained spells of 90mph, at least one of whom regularly gets significant movement through the air, while the fourth is metronomically accurate medium-fast? Hell, even if you put Hauritz in, what county has three quicks better than our top three AND/OR a spinner better than Hauritz.
 

Son Of Coco

Hall of Fame Member
Gotta laugh at suggestions that the Aussie attack is at all comparable to the county attacks Ramps would be facing. Which is the county(s) that have three bowlers with test averages in the 20s, and a fourth who averages 30? Or has three bowlers who bowl sustained spells of 90mph, at least one of whom regularly gets significant movement through the air, while the fourth is metronomically accurate medium-fast? Hell, even if you put Hauritz in, what county has three quicks better than our top three AND/OR a spinner better than Hauritz.
Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. If county cricket has this sort of quality how would you explain the English team's problems for a start? I can accept that occasionally there might be 1 or 2 bowlers of test standard. Not 4 or 5 though.
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
Would you rate them lower than individual bowlers he's faced though or lower than teams of bowlers he's faced in county cricket?
Gotta laugh at suggestions that the Aussie attack is at all comparable to the county attacks Ramps would be facing. Which is the county(s) that have three bowlers with test averages in the 20s, and a fourth who averages 30? Or has three bowlers who bowl sustained spells of 90mph, at least one of whom regularly gets significant movement through the air, while the fourth is metronomically accurate medium-fast? Hell, even if you put Hauritz in, what county has three quicks better than our top three AND/OR a spinner better than Hauritz.
There's a massive difference between this Aussie attack when it's bowling well and when it isn't, which makes comparisons difficult.

When the Aussie attack is firing, it's at least as good as a unit as just about any county attack I can think of since the start of the 1990s. However even then none of the individuals in it is as good as the best bowlers from county cricket in recent years (with the possible exception of Johnson if he's at the very top of his form, which I'm still not convinced he is). The best Australian bowler day in, day out is Stuart Clark, who himself played for Middlesex, and I wouldn't rate him as highly as either Warne, McGrath or Murali to name some of the outstanding county players of recent years.

When the Aussie attack is not firing, the best county attacks are better as units. Eg Lancashire featuring the likes of Anderson, Flintoff, Muralitharan, Chapple, Cork, Keedy; Sussex (Lewry, Kirtley, Rana, Martin-Jenkins and Mushy).
 
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Matt79

Global Moderator
There's a massive difference between this Aussie attack when it's bowling well and when it isn't, which makes comparisons difficult.

When the Aussie attack is firing, it's at least as good as a unit as just about any county attack I can think of since the start of the 1990s. However even then none of the individuals in it is as good as the best bowlers from county cricket in recent years (with the possible exception of Johnson if he's at the very top of his form, which I'm still not convinced he is). The best Australian bowler day in, day out is Stuart Clark, who himself played for Middlesex, and I wouldn't rate him as highly as either Warne, McGrath or Murali to name some of the outstanding county players of recent years.

When the Aussie attack is not firing, the best county attacks are better as units. Eg Lancashire featuring the likes of Anderson, Flintoff, Muralitharan, Chapple, Cork, Keedy; Sussex (Lewry, Kirtley, Rana, Martin-Jenkins and Mushy).
Sorry Z, I think you generally talk a lot of sense, but you're out on a ridiculous limb here. First, how often would Flintoff and Anderson actually be available for Lancs. Second, to say that Siddle or Hilfy are not as good as county bowlers is silly. Both earnt call ups to a better team than England, in Hilfys case by dominating in a better FC comp than the county. Saying that Johnson is merely a county standard bowler is ludicrous. It smacks of judging the bowlers on what you saw at Lords, rather than the entirety of their career. Bear in mind that, despite their problems this series, they have on all measures out performed their English counterparts - who are presumably the elite of the county scene. Finally, Ravi Bopara might be able to illuminate you on the difference between the Aussie
test attack and the types of attack you face in county matches.
 

Manee

Cricketer Of The Year
I'm not sure that's necessarily true. I agree it's a step up in level, but I don't agree years on the county circuit will make you a better batsman. If the pressure of top level competition is a problem then you won't address that by sticking to county cricket for years. If Ramprakash has done something about his problems performing at a top level then he probably should get another go. If he's just dined out on being a big fish in a small pond then probably not.
You are right that it may not address the problem but there is a probability that it can by making the technique more reliable.
 

social

Hall of Fame Member
There's a massive difference between this Aussie attack when it's bowling well and when it isn't, which makes comparisons difficult.

When the Aussie attack is firing, it's at least as good as a unit as just about any county attack I can think of since the start of the 1990s. However even then none of the individuals in it is as good as the best bowlers from county cricket in recent years (with the possible exception of Johnson if he's at the very top of his form, which I'm still not convinced he is). The best Australian bowler day in, day out is Stuart Clark, who himself played for Middlesex, and I wouldn't rate him as highly as either Warne, McGrath or Murali to name some of the outstanding county players of recent years.

When the Aussie attack is not firing, the best county attacks are better as units. Eg Lancashire featuring the likes of Anderson, Flintoff, Muralitharan, Chapple, Cork, Keedy; Sussex (Lewry, Kirtley, Rana, Martin-Jenkins and Mushy).
Only one of that lot (and that's assuming Mushy still has it) would play fc in Oz IMO
 

Top_Cat

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Only one of that lot (and that's assuming Mushy still has it) would play fc in Oz IMO
Come on. Rana was one of the best bowlers in the ODI series last time he was here with Pakistan and I'd reckon Lewry'd get a go with most state sides even now, let alone when he was better a few years ago.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Come on. Rana was one of the best bowlers in the ODI series last time he was here with Pakistan and I'd reckon Lewry'd get a go with most state sides even now, let alone when he was better a few years ago.
Yeah, what Social is saying is just as biased and exaggerated as what zaremba is saying.

No, they are certainly not better than Australia's current attack but yes, they would definitely all play First Class cricket here. RMJ might not be a regular I suppose but when you factor in his batting, he definitely would've played a fair few games. I mean come on, we've seen Daniel Christian play as a bowling allrounder in recent times.
 
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zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
Sorry Z, I think you generally talk a lot of sense, but you're out on a ridiculous limb here. First, how often would Flintoff and Anderson actually be available for Lancs. Second, to say that Siddle or Hilfy are not as good as county bowlers is silly. Both earnt call ups to a better team than England, in Hilfys case by dominating in a better FC comp than the county. Saying that Johnson is merely a county standard bowler is ludicrous. It smacks of judging the bowlers on what you saw at Lords, rather than the entirety of their career. Bear in mind that, despite their problems this series, they have on all measures out performed their English counterparts - who are presumably the elite of the county scene. Finally, Ravi Bopara might be able to illuminate you on the difference between the Aussie
test attack and the types of attack you face in county matches.
I may well be out on a ridiculous limb here but am pretty comfortable there! With respect, I think you're misunderstanding what I've tried to say, or alternatively you're setting up straw men to knock them down. I've simply not said that siddle or hilfy "are not as good as county bowlers" (although it's true that some county bowlers in recent years, such as Clark, Warne and McGrath, to give some obvious examples, are better than them) or that Johnson is "merely a county bowler". If I'd said those things then I would agree that I was talking crap (and am always prepared to accept that it's possible that even what I do say is crap).
 
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Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
This may as well have just been a dig of any Ramprakash thread from the previous 3 years. Precisely the same remarks apply now as ever.

If you believe Ramprakash's temperamental failings are still in place, you should no more pick him now than any time, regardless of the circumstances now and previously. If you believed at any point that they had been overcome (and I don't, personally) then he should've been picked long ago.

I don't expect Ramprakash to be picked now as I never expected him to be picked at any point since 2006. If by some remarkable chance he does I'll probably be ecstatic should he succeed. But his time is passed and was passed long ago.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Come on. Rana was one of the best bowlers in the ODI series last time he was here with Pakistan and I'd reckon Lewry'd get a go with most state sides even now, let alone when he was better a few years ago.
What's more Kirtley for most of his career was a more consistent if less dangerous bowler than Lewry.

It's possible that none of Sussex's attack, Rana aside, would have got a game in Australian state cricket if all Test bowlers had been fit and no Tests were being played in the season in about 1999 or 2000. But under any other circumstances they'd have been regulars.
 

Top_Cat

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Yeah, what Social is saying is just as biased and exaggerated as what zaremba is saying.

No, they are certainly not better than Australia's current attack but yes, they would definitely all play First Class cricket here. RMJ might not be a regular I suppose but when you factor in his batting, he definitely would've played a fair few games. I mean come on, we've seen Daniel Christian play as a bowling allrounder in recent times.
Haha, unlike you to take a shot at SA like that!
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
Come on. Rana was one of the best bowlers in the ODI series last time he was here with Pakistan and I'd reckon Lewry'd get a go with most state sides even now, let alone when he was better a few years ago.
Rana is pretty poor these days but about 3 or 4 years ago was, for a short time, just about the best bowler in county cricket.

Gilchrist said the Aussie team reckoned lewry was the best bowler they faced in 2001. He has no ambition to play international cricket, otherwise he would have done.
 
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Top_Cat

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What's more Kirtley for most of his career was a more consistent if less dangerous bowler than Lewry.

It's possible that none of Sussex's attack, Rana aside, would have got a game in Australian state cricket if all Test bowlers had been fit and no Tests were being played in the season in about 1999 or 2000. But under any other circumstances they'd have been regulars.
Debatable. I'd back Lewry, were he from NSW, to have pushed out Bracken in 2000. He'd at least be in the debate. As would Kirtley/Rana. And they'd have been amongst the top contenders for any other state at any time.
 
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Pothas

Hall of Fame Member
Sorry Z, I think you generally talk a lot of sense, but you're out on a ridiculous limb here. First, how often would Flintoff and Anderson actually be available for Lancs. Second, to say that Siddle or Hilfy are not as good as county bowlers is silly. Both earnt call ups to a better team than England, in Hilfys case by dominating in a better FC comp than the county. Saying that Johnson is merely a county standard bowler is ludicrous. It smacks of judging the bowlers on what you saw at Lords, rather than the entirety of their career. Bear in mind that, despite their problems this series, they have on all measures out performed their English counterparts - who are presumably the elite of the county scene. Finally, Ravi Bopara might be able to illuminate you on the difference between the Aussie
test attack and the types of attack you face in county matches.
This is all correct and it would be wrong to say that any attack in England is currently better than Australia's but there have been times when it is pretty close, take this Hampshire atack from 2006 with two Australians in it, Clark, Tremlett, Warne, Mascarenhas, Udal. There are probably better examples than that but it shows that on occasion county atacks have very strong lineups. I think it is safe to say that Ramps has scored runs against bowlers of similar standard to the Australian bowlers for many years in county cricket, the issue with Ramps as is commonly known is not his ability to play test cricket.
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
This is all correct and it would be wrong to say that any attack in England is currently better than Australia's but there have been times when it is pretty close, take this Hampshire atack from 2006 with two Australians in it, Clark, Tremlett, Warne, Mascarenhas, Udal. There are probably better examples than that but it shows that on occasion county atacks have very strong lineups. I think it is safe to say that Ramps has scored runs against bowlers of similar standard to the Australian bowlers for many years in county cricket, the issue with Ramps as is commonly known is not his ability to play test cricket.
Good example. That is a Test-class line-up, no question about it, and comparable in quality to the current Aussie attack. Broadly,
- Clark 2006 = or > Clark 2009
- Tremlett < Siddle or Hilf but it's much more marginal than some Aussies might think
- Warne > Johnson
- Udal = Hauritz.

(Mascarenhas = Ponting)
 

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