Australia's second best Test fast bowler

[Godard]

This is true of course, but Ambrose has similar quirks with his career that aren't acknowledged on CW:

- He took a third of his career wickets against an awful England team
- Only 5 tests against the second best team in the world (SA) during that era in the second half of his career atleast
- Even though he had success in Pakistan, basically all of it was in the 1990 series which had probably the most pace bowler friendly pitches Pakistan have ever produced in their history. Wasim, Waqar and Bishop had utterly obscene numbers. I find it difficult to hold lack of subcontinent success against Lillee in a comparison with Ambrose.

Plus when Lillee toured Pak, they prepared the flattest of wickets specifically to neutralise him.

 

[shortpitched713]

However Ambrose didnt face as much competition for the majority of his career as Marshall or Mcgarth, and at Ambrose’s peak(88-93), the only guy he faced real competition was from Jeff Thomson. Plus we are talking about the top tier, so there‘s a reason only Marshall definitive makes the top of the top(cause he has an excellent WPMm better than that of Holding, Ambrose, Garner etc). Lillee had a WPM of 5.5 about 85 percent into his career, and he faced decent competition throughout(not as good as Ambrose tho), and very good competition at his peak.

What the hell are you talking about Ambrose's real competition being Jeff Thomson? They didn't even play at the same time.

 

[Godard]

What the hell are you talking about Ambrose's real competition being Jeff Thomson? They didn't even play at the same time.

Calm down dude. Accidentally typed Jeff Thomson(who I wanted to write Lillee faced very good competition from in his(Lillee’s)peak), instead of Ian Bishop.

 

[shortpitched713]

Courtney Walsh wasn't competition? He's a hell of a sight better than Thommo, over the course of a career time spent with Ambrose compared to Thommo's with Lillee. A casual Malcom Marshall and Ian Bishop thrown in, and you're somehow arguing they're comparable. Maybe around the time he is getting close to retiring around 2000, but definitely not at his earlier peak, he's always had much more competition for wickets than Lillee.

 

[ZK$]

WPM isn’t a very useful statistic. Bowling strike rate is much better.

 

[shortpitched713]

If all 4 of your bowlers have a very close average and team role, why should any particular one of them concentrate on having a lower Strike Rate than the others, instead of simply focusing on being stingy as possible in not giving away any runs until the inevitable wicket comes?

 

[Slifer]

Sooo nobody is going to mention Ambrose's outstanding record vs the best team of his time: Australia. His success vs a weak English team is balanced out by an equally great record vs a great Oz team. Also, he's one of the few pacemen from the 90s who had success in Australia.

 

[Line and Length]

This thread isn't about Ambrose, so why get off topic?

 

[Godard]

Courtney Walsh wasn't competition? He's a hell of a sight better than Thommo, over the course of a career time spent with Ambrose compared to Thommo's with Lillee. A casual Malcom Marshall and Ian Bishop thrown in, and you're somehow arguing they're comparable. Maybe around the time he is getting close to retiring around 2000, but definitely not at his earlier peak, he's always had much more competition for wickets than Lillee.

Ambrose debuted in 1988, when Marshall was nearly past his peak. Walsh was decent, but would hit his peak much later(mid 90s). Walsh’s average from 88-94 is 27+. So the only bowler who troubled Ambrose for competotion for wickets, for the first half of his career was Ian Bishop, who I surely don’t rate above peak Thommo. For the second half of his career, Ambrose faced good competition from Walsh, who I comfortably rate above Thommo. So overall Ambrose faced somewhat better competition, but not nearly enough to highlight the big gap in their WPMs(Lillee and Ambrose).

 

[Godard]

Sooo nobody is going to mention Ambrose's outstanding record vs the best team of his time: Australia. His success vs a weak English team is balanced out by an equally great record vs a great Oz team. Also, he's one of the few pacemen from the 90s who had success in Australia.

Australia was a very good team and one of the best in the world in Ambrose‘s time, although Ambrose had his best success vs them before they became an ATG side. DK Lillee had a good record vs WI(maligned only by one bad match, his first one), when they became one of the greatest teams ever, in and out of the WSC, and in WI also in the WSC.

 

[shortpitched713]

Ambrose debuted in 1988, when Marshall was nearly past his peak. Walsh was decent, but would hit his peak much later(mid 90s). Walsh’s average from 88-94 is 27+. So the only bowler who troubled Ambrose for competotion for wickets, for the first half of his career was Ian Bishop, who I surely don’t rate above peak Thommo. For the second half of his career, Ambrose faced good competition from Walsh, who I comfortably rate above Thommo. So overall Ambrose faced somewhat better competition, but not nearly enough to highlight the big gap in their WPMs(Lillee and Ambrose).

That's a vast oversimplification.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Sooo nobody is going to mention Ambrose's outstanding record vs the best team of his time: Australia.

Literally everyone always mentions this.

It's fine to point out minor holes in a great player's record that aren't mentioned often.

 

[Godard]

That's a vast oversimplification.

Thats what it is. Marshall post 88 wasn’t half the force he was, Walsh was mediocre 88-94(av.27.3), only Bishop was decent. Peak Thomson was far more devastating than peak Bishop,

 

[CricketFan90s]

Who is the second best Australian fast bowler after Glenn McGrath?

Dennis Lillee easily the Second best Bowler of Australia and many would call him in Australia better than Glenn McGrath.

If i add World Series Cricket Records Lillee stats goes like this :

Dennis Lillee - 422 Wickets at an Avg of 24.39 with a strike rate of 51.91 at an economy rate of 2.82
Glenn McGrath - 563 Wickets at an Avg of 21.64 with a strike rate of 51.94 at an economy rate of 2.49

McGrath bowled an Avg of 20.06 overs per innings and Lillee bowled an Avg of 23.26 overs per innings. Lillee had more Stamina compared to McGrath but more expensive.

 

[CricAddict]

Courtney Walsh wasn't competition? He's a hell of a sight better than Thommo, over the course of a career time spent with Ambrose compared to Thommo's with Lillee. A casual Malcom Marshall and Ian Bishop thrown in, and you're somehow arguing they're comparable. Maybe around the time he is getting close to retiring around 2000, but definitely not at his earlier peak, he's always had much more competition for wickets than Lillee.

I will say Walsh is probably the lowest rated ATG on CW even more than Kallis, Pollock etc. Many here don't even rate him as ATG for all his achievements.

 

[subshakerz]

Anyways Lillee's huge percentage of home tests and very little in WI (not including WSC) and SC disqualify him from the top top tier. WPM is irrelevant since he wasn't tested enough for those stats to mean as much as other elite bowlers.

However you rate Ambrose as an away bowler, he simply was better tested and his other shortcomings in his record mean less against Lillee who has a huge hole.

 

[ZK$]

I will say Walsh is probably the lowest rated ATG on CW even more than Kallis, Pollock etc. Many here don't even rate him as ATG for all his achievements.

I’m surprised that Pollock is rated higher than Walsh as a bowler here tbh. Walsh was comfortably better imo.

 

[CricketFan90s]

I will say Walsh is probably the lowest rated ATG on CW even more than Kallis, Pollock etc. Many here don't even rate him as ATG for all his achievements.

Walsh is a class above Pollock as Bowler. He was still very effective at the time of his retirement.

 

[Burgey]

Anyways Lillee's huge percentage of home tests and very little in WI (not including WSC) and SC disqualify him from the top top tier. WPM is irrelevant since he wasn't tested enough for those stats to mean as much as other elite bowlers.

However you rate Ambrose as an away bowler, he simply was better tested and his other shortcomings in his record mean less against Lillee who has a huge hole.

Wasn’t aware that ambrose was in the running to be considered Australia’s second greatest ever fast bowler tbh

 

[Burgey]

Dennis Lillee easily the Second best Bowler of Australia and many would call him in Australia better than Glenn McGrath.

If i add World Series Cricket Records Lillee stats goes like this :

Dennis Lillee - 422 Wickets at an Avg of 24.39 with a strike rate of 51.91 at an economy rate of 2.82
Glenn McGrath - 563 Wickets at an Avg of 21.64 with a strike rate of 51.94 at an economy rate of 2.49

McGrath bowled an Avg of 20.06 overs per innings and Lillee bowled an Avg of 23.26 overs per innings. Lillee had more Stamina compared to McGrath but more expensive.

He didn’t have more stamina. There was often 2-3 weeks between tests in Lillee’s time. By the time McGrath rolled around series were roughly run on todays scheduling and there was little rest at all. The difference is negligible, particularly when McGrath had Warne plugged in at the other end bowling monster spells.