subshakerz
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Lillee took five wickets a test too.
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Australia's second best Test fast bowler
- Thread starter Archer6K
- Start date
subshakerz
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
What happened to headbands? I would love to see them bring that back into fashion.
About five and a half per tests until very deep into his career. Did damn well in WSC vs top batting sides too.
The only thing that holds Lillee back for some people from the top tier of fast bowlers(Imran-Ambrose-Steyn-Marshall-McGrath-Hadlee) is that he wasn’t tested conditions wise too much, although I would include him in this tier, because his extraordinary WPM makes up for it, and he did face good competition from Thommo for a good four five years. Par With Ambrose and Steyn, slightly below the others.
subshakerz
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Nah, you need SC-success as a pacer bowler to be in the top top tier.
Pap Finn Keighl
International Debutant
Mcgrath easily
Ambrose didn’t have much SC success, and has a relatively poor WPM compared to other ATGs(in his prime, Walsh and Bishop weren’t big threats). That’s why I said he is a part of the top tier, not the sub tier inside that of Imran-McGrath-Marshall-Hadlee.
Who’s the greatest then?(I presume you’ll say DK Lillee).
shortpitched713
Cricketer Of The Year
Too hard for me to choose between Lindwall and Lillee. I've gone with the former, as he currently has less votes.
subshakerz
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Lillee also didn't succeed in the WI. That's a bit rough. Ambrose did in Australia. And briefly in Pakistan. Enough to take him over Lillee.
Lillee barely bowled 5 overs in WI. And pitches were pretty pace conducive in WI then, so would count on him succeeding if he got another chance to bowl there.
subshakerz
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Majorly.
Ambrose had to compete with Marshall, Walsh and Bishop for wickets which accounts for much of his lower WPM. Ambrose was a confirmed success at home, and in England and Australia, with moderate success in SA and Pakistan.
60 of Lillee's 70 games were in England and at home in Australia. what little he played in the SC and WI, he didn't do anything. There isn't any way to fudge away that imbalance.
BazBall21
International Captain
Lillee had a good series in WI in WSC. He didn’t succeed in the Test series there because that was when he had the stress fracture.
Starfighter
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I don't usr WpM, despite being tempting because it'd allow me to rank Wasim Akram much lower than many people.
You are overrating Ambrose’s competition and underrating Lillee’s competition.
Ambrose‘s WPM is still too far below Lillee’s and Lillee faced better competition from Thommo for a good four five years when he(Lillee) was at his peak, than Ambrose did at his peak. Plus the rest of his career, it wasn’t like Lillee was bowling with am attack the level Hadlee was with NZ. Walsh and Marshall(who was past his peak post 88) weren’t much of a threat for Ambrose at the latter‘s peak(88-93), and peak Bishop<peak Thommo. And Ambrose didn’t face like as many competition in his career as Marshall and Mcgrath did, so it’s not enough to account for his low WPM(just a few shades above 4, not 4.5+ like Marshall or Mcgrath). SA and Aus conditions are very similar, so Lille not playing in SA doesn’t count for much. So the only thing Ambrose does better is moderate success in Pak for a very limited time(in much better bowling conditions) and well in WI(which are both his home conditions and at that time very pace conducive, and plus Lillee did their well in WSC). So all in all, the gap in home away is very minor, and smaller than the adjusted gap in their WPM.
shortpitched713
Cricketer Of The Year
WPM is a notoriously bad way to judge the impact of the pack hunting WI quicks.
Honestly, because of the fact that any one of the 4 quicks they had could go off, even strike rate isn't the greatest measure, so you are forced to go with averages and what you see of their performance.
Honestly, because of the fact that any one of the 4 quicks they had could go off, even strike rate isn't the greatest measure, so you are forced to go with averages and what you see of their performance.
OverratedSanity
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This is true of course, but Ambrose has similar quirks with his career that aren't acknowledged on CW:
- He took a third of his career wickets against an awful England team
- Only 5 tests against the second best team in the world (SA) during that era in the second half of his career atleast
- Even though he had success in Pakistan, basically all of it was in the 1990 series which had probably the most pace bowler friendly pitches Pakistan have ever produced in their history. Wasim, Waqar and Bishop had utterly obscene numbers. I find it difficult to hold lack of subcontinent success against Lillee in a comparison with Ambrose.
However Ambrose didnt face as much competition for the majority of his career as Marshall or Mcgarth, and at Ambrose’s peak(88-93), the only guy he faced real competition was from Jeff Thomson. Plus we are talking about the top tier, so there‘s a reason only Marshall definitive makes the top of the top(cause he has an excellent WPMm better than that of Holding, Ambrose, Garner etc). Lillee had a WPM of 5.5 about 85 percent into his career, and he faced decent competition throughout(not as good as Ambrose tho), and very good competition at his peak.