Australia's second best Test fast bowler

[Godard]

Anyways Lillee's huge percentage of home tests and very little in WI (not including WSC) and SC disqualify him from the top top tier. WPM is irrelevant since he wasn't tested enough for those stats to mean as much as other elite bowlers.

However you rate Ambrose as an away bowler, he simply was better tested and his other shortcomings in his record mean less against Lillee who has a huge hole.

I’d say Lillee’s extraordinary WPM would make up for being a little less tested than Ambrose. Ambrose didn’t exactly master any conditions foreign to Lillee, since pitches in WI were pretty pace conducive during the time of both. And Lillee faced good competition during his peak, better than Ambrose during his peak. However overall Ambrose faced better competition than Lillee, but not the level Marshall or others faces(and his WPM is convincingly below Marshall and McGrath who faced a lot of competition as bowlers), so there is a good gap between his and Lillee’s wicket taking ability(considering Lillee up till 70 tests, was resting at nearly at 5.5 WPM). But this is a very close thing, so I understand why’d you take Ambrose over Lillee in the top tier.

 

[CricketFan90s]

He didn’t have more stamina. There was often 2-3 weeks between tests in Lillee’s time. By the time McGrath rolled around series were roughly

Not really 2-3 weeks was not the case in 1970s too just check the dates. Lillee also never had a Spinner like Warne to support him. Many times he used to bowl extra spells for the Team as they needed a Wicket at crucial time. Lillee(23) and Hadlee(24) bowled generally more overs per innings than most All Time Greats.

 

[subshakerz]

I’d say Lillee’s extraordinary WPM would make up for being a little less tested than Ambrose. Ambrose didn’t exactly master any conditions foreign to Lillee, since pitches in WI were pretty pace conducive during the time of both. And Lillee faced good competition during his peak, better than Ambrose during his peak. However overall Ambrose faced better competition than Lillee, but not the level Marshall or others faces(and his WPM is convincingly below Marshall and McGrath who faced a lot of competition as bowlers), so there is a good gap between his and Lillee’s wicket taking ability(considering Lillee up till 70 tests, was resting at nearly at 5.5 WPM). But this is a very close thing, so I understand why’d you take Ambrose over Lillee in the top tier.

Lillee's WPM is like Ashwin's WPM, built on a couple of countries so you can't take it too seriously. Lillee just has a better reputation.

Ambrose was the best ever away bowler in Australia. His reasonable success in other countries and at home just makes his case more clear.

 

[CricketFan90s]

Dennis Lillee Wickets Per Match 2.69, Glenn McGrath WPM 2.32. So Lillee had to take more responsibility than McGrath in his time as there was no Shane Warne.

 

[Line and Length]

@subshakerz Time you realised the fact that this thread is about Australian fast bowlers. Comments about Ambrose are totally irrelevant. I acknowledge he (Ambrose) is an ATG but that has nothing to do with the topic. Both @Burgey and I have pointed this out but you and @Godard keep muddying the waters.

 

[subshakerz]

@subshakerz Time you realised the fact that this thread is about Australian fast bowlers. Comments about Ambrose are totally irrelevant. I acknowledge he (Ambrose) is an ATG but that has nothing to do with the topic. Both @Burgey and I have pointed this out but you and @Godard keep muddying the waters.

I didn't first bring up Ambrose. Was only responding to comments about Lillee's lack of SC success and then someone brought up Ambrose and we went from there.

 

[srbhkshk]

So anyway coming back to the topic, do you guys reckon Ambrose would be Australia's second best test fast bowler if he was actually an Aussie?

 

[subshakerz]

So anyway coming back to the topic, do you guys reckon Ambrose would be Australia's second best test fast bowler if he was actually an Aussie?

Better than Lillee.

 

[trundler]

So anyway coming back to the topic, do you guys reckon Ambrose would be Australia's second best test fast bowler if he was actually an Aussie?

Depends on if he's better than Lillee.

 

[Coronis]

So anyway coming back to the topic, do you guys reckon Ambrose would be Australia's second best test fast bowler if he was actually an Aussie?

Better than Lillee but not Davo.

 

[CricAddict]

I didn't first bring up Ambrose. Was only responding to comments about Lillee's lack of SC success and then someone brought up Ambrose and we went from there.

No excuses. Stand up on the bench.

 

[Godard]

Lillee's WPM is like Ashwin's WPM, built on a couple of countries so you can't take it too seriously. Lillee just has a better reputation.

Ambrose was the best ever away bowler in Australia. His reasonable success in other countries and at home just makes his case more clear.

Lillee is just behind Alderman and Murali as the best away bowler in Eng. Ambrose barely played in Pak or Sa or NZ. And wickets in WI were pace conducive at that time. And in Pak, where everyone took a truckload of wickets in that series, I don’t think it a great or even a good achievement for an ATG to come out with moderate success. I am not saying Lillee’s home away record is great, but Ambrose was tested more by a very small margin, while the adjusted WPM gap between both is atleast the same if not more. I understand your logic Subs, it’s just that for me very moderate success for one series in favourable conditions in SC or success on other pace conducive pitches doesn’t matter as much, as what is for me a sizeable difference in adjusted WPM. And this will be my last post about that on this thread.

 

[Godard]

@subshakerz Time you realised the fact that this thread is about Australian fast bowlers. Comments about Ambrose are totally irrelevant. I acknowledge he (Ambrose) is an ATG but that has nothing to do with the topic. Both @Burgey and I have pointed this out but you and @Godard keep muddying the waters.

Sure. But why’s everyone acting like this is the first thread on CW to deviate slightly from its topic?Worst I saw was Hobbs vs Hutton, which turned into Hutton vs Gavaskar.

 

[Godard]

No excuses. Stand up on the bench.

He didn’t dude. I did

 

[CricAddict]

He didn’t dude. I did

Both of you then. Say "I will not deviate" 10 times.

 

[subshakerz]

Lillee is just behind Alderman and Murali as the best away bowler in Eng. Ambrose barely played in Pak or Sa or NZ. And wickets in WI were pace conducive at that time. And in Pak, where everyone took a truckload of wickets in that series, I don’t think it a great or even a good achievement for an ATG to come out with moderate success. I am not saying Lillee’s home away record is great, but Ambrose was tested more by a very small margin, while the adjusted WPM gap between both is atleast the same if not more. I understand your logic Subs, it’s just that for me very moderate success for one series in favourable conditions in SC or success on other pace conducive pitches doesn’t matter as much, as what is for me a sizeable difference in adjusted WPM. And this will be my last post about that on this thread.

I get your logic too. Success across countries is the ultimate test for me.

I just think cricket is replete with other players who have unusually thrived in 1-2 conditions, like Ashwin,, but lack in others.

If Lillee didn't have his reputation, I wouldn't even put him in the top ten pacers based on his record.

Lillee's reputation is his biggest USP, no pacers was ever rated so ahead of the pack of his era.

 

[Godard]

Both of you then. Say "I will not deviate" 10 times.

I will not deviate. I will not deviate. I will not deviate. I will not deviate. I will not deviate. I will not deviate. I will not deviate. I will not deviate. I will not deviate. I will maybe?

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

Lindwall-Played too long.Would have made the Aussie internationals team years before he did,had it not been for War.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Who’s the greatest then?(I presume you’ll say DK Lillee).

Lillee > Mcgrath > Warne

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

I get your logic too. Success across countries is the ultimate test for me.

I just think cricket is replete with other players who have unusually thrived in 1-2 conditions, like Ashwin,, but lack in others.

If Lillee didn't have his reputation, I wouldn't even put him in the top ten pacers based on his record.

Lillee's reputation is his biggest USP, no pacers was ever rated so ahead of the pack of his era.

Steyn?
Barnes?