Englands Foreigners

[superkingdave]

Lancashire Ones

Prince - 2 year kolpak contract, saffie
Katich - Overseas Player
Horton - moved from Aus to Liverpool when he was 15, first played for Lancashire at U17 level, been at the club 16 years.
Agathangelou - played for SA U19, came over on Cypriot passport
Moore - Came over here for Uni IIRC (think he was at Exeter), played county cricket for 10+ years, gone now
Jarvis - Zim

 

[theegyptian]

Well the middlesex team is pretty representative of London. i.e. about 40% of it's population born overseas.

 

[fredfertang]

An interesting issue this one - times and qualification rules change of course, but above all the world is a much smaller place than it used to be - when I get home tonight I'll dust off my 1964 Wisden and do a similar exercise to Neil's for 50 years ago

 

[superkingdave]

Well im bored at work so here's a list from 25 years ago - there are a few forces/coincidence births but these are all the players born abroad who played a FC match for a county in 1988 (73 players). There are also people likely Alan Mullally who was born in England but many would consider more foreign than many on the list

J Wright	Derbyshire
Sharma	Derbyshire
Bruce Roberts	Derbyshire
Holding	Derbyshire
Mortensen	Derbyshire
Malcolm	Derbyshire
Jean-Jacques	Derbyshire
Border	Essex
Hussain	Essex
M Waugh	Essex
Pringle	Essex
Ontong	Glamorgan
Shastri	Glamorgan
Van Zyl	Glamorgan
Curran	Gloucestershire
Lloyds	Gloucestershire
Alderman	Gloucestershire
Greene	Gloucestershire
R Smith	Hampshire
Chris Smith	Hampshire
Jefferies	Hampshire
Terry	Hampshire
Bakker	Hampshire
Maru	Hampshire
Connor	Hampshire
Pienaar	Kent
H Alleyne	Kent
Sabine	Kent
Mendis	Lancashire
Akram	Lancashire
Abrahams	Lancashire
Matthews	Lancashire
Defreitas	Leicestershire
Lewis	Leicestershire
Ferris	Leicestershire
Benson	Leicestershire
Garnham	Leicestershire
Slack	Middlesex
Butcher	Middlesex
N Williams	Middlesex
Barnett	Middlesex
Cowans	Middlesex
Daniel	Middlesex
Lamb	Northants
Stephenson	Northants
Callaghan	Northants
W Davis	Northants
Lillee	Northants
Cairns	Northants
S Waugh	Somerset
Crowe	Somerset
J Hardy	Somerset
M Lynch	Surrey
Sadiq	Surrey
Greig	Surrey
S Clarke	Surrey
Boiling	Surrey
Gray	Surrey
P Parker	Sussex
Khan	Sussex
M Pringle	Sussex
Asif Din	Warwickshire
Kallicharran	Warwickshire
Small	Warwickshire
Reeve	Warwickshire
Merrick	Warwickshire
Donald	Warwickshire
Benjamin	Warwickshire
Hick	Worcestershire
Radford	Worcestershire
D'Oliveira	Worcestershire
Ellcock	Worcestershire
Vorster	Worcestershire

 

[benchmark00]

Daw	Sudan
Wallace	USA

 

[dermo]

awaiting marcs response

 

[Neil Pickup]

Their your guidelines Neil.
Just emphasize their is a proliferation of foreigners,some naturalised,in the England comp.

I just listed foreign-born players, and as Dave (and Tangy later) will demonstrate, because of the fact that the UK is a multi-national society that continually attracts immigrants to live and work here, any representative side will always contain foreign-born or foreign-raised individuals. That is Britain. The last Oxfordshire U10 age group side I managed had five players who were at least half South African - living, playing for clubs and going to schools in England. We now have massive labour mobility, so the UK is an attractive destination. That is the 21st Century. England has the most stringent qualification rules in International cricket. Somebody has to be part of the English system for an extended length of time before pulling on the Three Lions. Birth does not imply loyalty or identity.

I take it back everyone who plays for Middlesex is English

This is the kind of debating logic that kills anything resembling discussion and makes your argument look ridiculous.

 

[Pothas]

It is only one case but there are certainly a lot less foreign born players at Hampshire than there were a few years ago. It may be an extreme case but this was our team that played in the C&G final in 2005. I am using it because I remember it was remarked upon at the time.

Crawley - England
Pothas - SA
Ervine - Zimbabwe
Pietersen - SA
Watson - Australia
Mascharenhas - Australia
Bichel - Australia
Lamb -Zimbabwe
Udal –England
Latouff – South Africa
Tremlett – England

Compare that to the side that played in the county championship game last week.

Carberry
Adams
Dawson
Vince
Ervine- Zimbabwe
Wheater
Bates
Coles
Briggs
Braithwaite – Barbados
Tomlinson

Ervine and Braithwaite have also been here for years as well. Mckenzie was also there a couple of weeks ago but that is still a big difference. No idea if this is seen elsewhere or not, there has certainly been a change of policy at Hampshire in the last few years. someone to look at the 2005 season for all counties.

 

[Goughy]

Rather than going through the whole thread - and I am sure there is some gold in here that I will miss - I think the point isn't whether these players should or should not be playing for England. In an ideal World Id rather all were born and leaned their game in England. However, that isn't realistic, the rules permit it and I don't have an issue with it. No point worrying about things you cant change.

IMO, the important question that is hard to measure is, is there a bias towards foreign-born players in selection at and below international level? I cannot say how prevalent it is or why it happens but it certainly exists to some extent.

I have seen it happen with players at different levels in the UK, I have been benefited from similar attitudes outside the UK, I have found myself falling in to the same trap as a coach and seen it at the England level where the fashion was to play ordinary West Indians in the 80s and average Australians in the 90s.

Whether it is because of being able to stand out from the crowd, being seen as exotic or interesting, their differences seemingly inflate their potential, treated differently by their peers or because they are seen as a gift free resource that would be crazy to ignore (or possibly all of the above) foreign-born players have an advantage of being elevated out of mediocrity. The issue will always exist in jnr cricket as making an impression is important and being in the system is where you develop. The key is to get noticed and included. Their progression in the system then elevates players above those outside it. The same can be said from the relatively new England set-up. Being included is the key. Players should then advance quicker than those left in the County system.

The question should never be, should they be allowed to play - of course they should - but does the system favor them?

I am not saying that is the only bias in cricket selection from juniors on. One only needs to look at favourable treatment of those from cricketing families, going to the 'right school' and the importance of knowing people but this is there among them.

 

[brockley]

Goughy the problem is the Counties,ECB tightened policy,the Counties import overseas players rather than develop there own talent.
Don't care what Marc's response is,finished with the conversation.

 

[SeamUp]

It does seem an coincidence that 'foreign' players or players with a 'foreign connection' are the one's making it to the top ?

I mean for example Dawid Malan is as thick an Afrikaans name and surname as there is. Afrikaaners don't exactly like 'Red Necks'.

But eventhough he was born in England, it was to South African parents and he came back to school at an Afrikaans school called Paarl Boys High where came through the Boland system but yet been involved in England performance squads before.

I'm not attacking here but Strauss and Pietersen are Afrikaans surnames so my old man and I always have a good laugh when we saw these Afrikaans surnames in an England batting line-up.

 

[Neil Pickup]

The important question that is hard to measure is, is there a bias towards foreign-born players in selection at and below international level? I cannot say how prevalent it is or why it happens but it certainly exists to some extent ... I am not saying that is the only bias in cricket selection from juniors on. One only needs to look at favourable treatment of those from cricketing families, going to the 'right school' and the importance of knowing people but this is there among them.

That's a really interesting and thought-provoking point. I'd say part of this unequal representation is going to be for co-causal reasons; the Asian diaspora is going to have a massively larger number of children playing cricket than the Polish community (say) for cultural reasons - consequently there are more Asian professional cricketers than footballers, and more Polish footballers than cricketers. The counter to this also can hold true with the Asian community, as you have a number of Asian-dominated clubs who do not enter County/ECB cricket and therefore are not part of the establishment and system, so perhaps do not get players on the inside.

South African immigrants, however, tend to predominantly belong to the upper social classes - those for whom the boarding or private school education is normal practice - and it's already been discussed at length why these groups are "over-represented" in cricket - exposure, finances, facilities, coaching and practice. It's not coincidental that most of the South Africans alluded to earlier in my youth squad are privately educated, and a great many of the naturalised South Africans in English cricket have come through the same way - through private education, with Millfield and Whitgift particularly active. These boys are going to be England-qualified, and they're not going to come over here unless they think they have a real chance of making it big - so of course you'll get an unequal representation come the final analysis. Our job as coaches and selectors is then to ensure that we look beyond a player's current levels and judge them in relation to their experience and training: in the same way that we must be careful to judge young state-school players to different standards to prep school boys, we mustn't be blinded by South African or West Indian roots.

 

[fredfertang]

24 hours late here is the list for 1963

Derbyshire
DB Carr Germany
HL Johnson Barbados

Gloucestershire

RC White South Africa
A Dindar South Africa

Hampshire

RE Marshall West Indies
DA Livingstone West Indies

Kent

SE Leary South Africa
MC Cowdrey India

Lancashire

KJ Grieves Australia

Leicestershire

CC Inman Ceylon (Sri Lanka)
S Jayasinghe Ceylon (Sri Lanka)

Middlesex

CD Drysborough Australia

Northamptonshire

D Ramsamooj West Indies

Nottinghamshire

C Forbes West Indies

Somerset

WE Alley Australia

Surrey

JL Cuthbertson India

Sussex

ER Dexter Italy
DJ Foreman South Africa
Nawab of Pataudi India

Warwickshire

RE Hitchcock New Zealand
K Ibadulla Pakistan
RV Webster West Indies
JA Jameson India

Worcestershire

RGA Headley West Indies

Essex, Glamorgan and, of course, Yorkshire had no players born overseas

Of those Carr, Cowdrey, Dexter and Jameson played Tests for England

Marshall, Headley and Ibadulla played a handful of Tests for their country

Of the "foreigners" only Pataudi had a significant Test career

All of them, I'm reasonably confident but cba to check, spent their whole county career in the same place

 

[marc71178]

Goughy the problem is the Counties,ECB tightened policy,the Counties import overseas players rather than develop there own talent.
Don't care what Marc's response is,finished with the conversation.

Well Neil proved your claims as wrong anyway.

 

[SeamUp]

That's a really interesting and thought-provoking point. I'd say part of this unequal representation is going to be for co-causal reasons; the Asian diaspora is going to have a massively larger number of children playing cricket than the Polish community (say) for cultural reasons - consequently there are more Asian professional cricketers than footballers, and more Polish footballers than cricketers. The counter to this also can hold true with the Asian community, as you have a number of Asian-dominated clubs who do not enter County/ECB cricket and therefore are not part of the establishment and system, so perhaps do not get players on the inside.

South African immigrants, however, tend to predominantly belong to the upper social classes - those for whom the boarding or private school education is normal practice - and it's already been discussed at length why these groups are "over-represented" in cricket - exposure, finances, facilities, coaching and practice. It's not coincidental that most of the South Africans alluded to earlier in my youth squad are privately educated, and a great many of the naturalised South Africans in English cricket have come through the same way - through private education, with Millfield and Whitgift particularly active. These boys are going to be England-qualified, and they're not going to come over here unless they think they have a real chance of making it big - so of course you'll get an unequal representation come the final analysis. Our job as coaches and selectors is then to ensure that we look beyond a player's current levels and judge them in relation to their experience and training: in the same way that we must be careful to judge young state-school players to different standards to prep school boys, we mustn't be blinded by South African or West Indian roots.

Really enjoyed your viewpoint here mate.

Here is something interesting though with regards to the schooling system in South Africa and 'class status'. Recently Kyle Abbott and Dean Elgar were the first privately schooled players to debut in test cricket for South Africa since David Terbrugge of St Stithians in 1998. Since re-admission only Herschelle Gibbs (Bishops), Brett Schultz (Kingswood), Mark Rushmere (Woodridge), Dave Richardson (St Patrick's Marist), Meryck Pringle (Kingswood), Adrian Kuiper (Bishops) & Andrew Hudson (Kearsney) went to private high schools. Before isolation and during there were other schools like Michaelhouse (Herby Taylor & Henry Fotheringham) Hilton (Waite & Procter), St Johns (Bruce Mitchell, Clive Rice) produced players.

In South Africa, cricket isn't really considered a posh sport or anything as we have plenty of high level boarding & day-boy boys schools who are actually public schools who have good facilities and good professional coaching. These schools are the life blood of our cricket. You will find the majority of our test players went to these schools. The main one's being Rondebosch (HD Ackerman, G.Kirsten, Commins, Trott), SACS (P.Kirsten), Wynberg (Kallis, Lamb, Le Roux), Grey PE (G. Pollock, P.Pollock, Botha, Callaghan, Parnell, Faulkner), Selborne (Boucher), Queens (Greig, Cullinan, McEwan, Kemp) Dale College (Hylton Ackerman, Ntini) Grey Bloem (Wessels, Cronje, Boje, McLaren, van Zyl, Dippenaar), DHS (Goddard, Richards, Irvine, Tayfield, Amla, Snell, Klusener), Maritzburg College (McGlew, Lindsay, Rhodes, Pietersen, Miller),Northwood (S.Pollock, R.Smith) Pretoria Boys (Barlow), KES (The McKeznie's, The Bacher's, G.Smith) Affies (Rudolph, AB de Villiers, du Plessis, Wagner) etc

A list here: List of SA Test Cricketers and the Schools they attended | School Sports News

In fact recently there was complaints that boys who went to the private schools were taking things to easily as they had money and didn't have to work hard for what they wanted. That was the reasoning behind them not producing SA cricketers but interesting quite a number of our current SA u19 players are attending private schools.

There is also a thought that these private schools and expensive public schools Imentioned don't really produce that many fast bowlers. For example Donald, Fanie de Villiers, Steyn, Morkel, Philander, de Lange didn't go to any of them. Different case with our batsmen.

I mean I look at a number of the current players going to England from SA a number went to private schools...

Craig Kieswetter & Chris Cooke (Bishops)
Nick Compton (Hilton)
Wayne Madsen (Kearsney)
Dale Benkenstein (Michaelhouse)
Michael Lumb, Stephen Moore & Greg Smith along with Grant Elliott for NZL (St Stithians)
Tom Curran (Hilton)
Rikki Wessels (Woodridge)

Others at high level public schools like Trott & Pietersen

Keaton Jennings (KES)
Michael Richardson (Rondebosch)
Jade Dernbach, Jason Roy & Stuart Meaker (Glenwood)
Gareth Roderick & Neil Dexter (Northwood)
Dawid Malan (Paarl Boys)

 

[sledger]

I'm not attacking here but Strauss and Pietersen are Afrikaans surnames.

The Strauss name originates from Prussia. Pietersen is undoubtedly an Afrikaans name, however.

 

[SeamUp]

The Strauss name originates from Prussia. Pietersen is undoubtedly an Afrikaans name, however.

Its German descent. In South Africa Afrikaaners are (Dutch, German and French descent) although a number of German and French Hugenot settlers became English speaking in South Africa as they settled in English areas like Port Elizabeth, East London , Durban & Pietermaritzburg.

But 99.99% of Strauss' in South Africa have Afrikaans in their blood. Just look at our rugby scene which is filled with Afrikaans Strauss' (Adriaan Strauss, Andries Strauss and in the past Tiaan Strauss who went on to play rugby for Australia).

 

[sledger]

Fair dos.

 

[brockley]

Couldn't be bothered Marc,if you cannot accept there are a lot of foreigners in county cricket then stay blind i guess.We all know whats the case.
Of a list i have there are 27 south Africans,11 irish,14 Aussies,6 West Indians.
This will be added to haven't included Jarvis or those playing County 2nds playing for contracts,but there is a lot of Saffies,Scots and Irish playing 2nd xl cricket.
Gather there will be more when India don't tour S africa and decimate their system.Contracts will be cut,and those who are contracted will have to take large pay cuts.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Really enjoyed your viewpoint here mate.

Here is something interesting though with regards to the schooling system in South Africa and 'class status'. Recently Kyle Abbott and Dean Elgar were the first privately schooled players to debut in test cricket for South Africa since David Terbrugge of St Stithians in 1998. Since re-admission only Herschelle Gibbs (Bishops), Brett Schultz (Kingswood), Mark Rushmere (Woodridge), Dave Richardson (St Patrick's Marist), Meryck Pringle (Kingswood), Adrian Kuiper (Bishops) & Andrew Hudson (Kearsney) went to private high schools. Before isolation and during there were other schools like Michaelhouse (Herby Taylor & Henry Fotheringham) Hilton (Waite & Procter), St Johns (Bruce Mitchell, Clive Rice) produced players.

In South Africa, cricket isn't really considered a posh sport or anything as we have plenty of high level boarding & day-boy boys schools who are actually public schools who have good facilities and good professional coaching. These schools are the life blood of our cricket. You will find the majority of our test players went to these schools. The main one's being Rondebosch (HD Ackerman, G.Kirsten, Commins, Trott), SACS (P.Kirsten), Wynberg (Kallis, Lamb, Le Roux), Grey PE (G. Pollock, P.Pollock, Botha, Callaghan, Parnell, Faulkner), Selborne (Boucher), Queens (Greig, Cullinan, McEwan, Kemp) Dale College (Hylton Ackerman, Ntini) Grey Bloem (Wessels, Cronje, Boje, McLaren, van Zyl, Dippenaar), DHS (Goddard, Richards, Irvine, Tayfield, Amla, Snell, Klusener), Maritzburg College (McGlew, Lindsay, Rhodes, Pietersen, Miller),Northwood (S.Pollock, R.Smith) Pretoria Boys (Barlow), KES (The McKeznie's, The Bacher's, G.Smith) Affies (Rudolph, AB de Villiers, du Plessis, Wagner) etc

A list here: List of SA Test Cricketers and the Schools they attended | School Sports News

In fact recently there was complaints that boys who went to the private schools were taking things to easily as they had money and didn't have to work hard for what they wanted. That was the reasoning behind them not producing SA cricketers but interesting quite a number of our current SA u19 players are attending private schools.

There is also a thought that these private schools and expensive public schools Imentioned don't really produce that many fast bowlers. For example Donald, Fanie de Villiers, Steyn, Morkel, Philander, de Lange didn't go to any of them. Different case with our batsmen.

I mean I look at a number of the current players going to England from SA a number went to private schools...

Craig Kieswetter & Chris Cooke (Bishops)
Nick Compton (Hilton)
Wayne Madsen (Kearsney)
Dale Benkenstein (Michaelhouse)
Michael Lumb, Stephen Moore & Greg Smith along with Grant Elliott for NZL (St Stithians)
Tom Curran (Hilton)
Rikki Wessels (Woodridge)

Others at high level public schools like Trott & Pietersen

Keaton Jennings (KES)
Michael Richardson (Rondebosch)
Jade Dernbach, Jason Roy & Stuart Meaker (Glenwood)
Gareth Roderick & Neil Dexter (Northwood)
Dawid Malan (Paarl Boys)

In the UK at least the terms "private school" & "public school" are pretty much synonymous; both meaning "fee paying".

Is it different in SA?