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Englands Foreigners

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
In Cricket terms if someone has had a significant amount of their development as a player in this country then as far as I'm concerned they're not foreign. Clearly classing someone born and bred here who has played a couple of games for Ireland as a result of family history as foreign is crap though.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
I think, to be honest, nationality is predominantly defined by where one grows up. Obviously there are exceptions to this, like the children of military parents or those of people who work in the diplomatic core, say.

However, by and large, I'm happier saying guys like Min Patel, who was born in India to Indian parents but who moved to Blighty at two, is English than (say) Darren Pattinson, who was born in England to English parents, but who moved crimside at five. To hear him speak it's patently obvious he's an Aussie. Would wager GIMH's buddy would be thought of as American for the same reason.
 

brockley

International Captain
Starc so no foreigners playing as locals then a figment of my imagination,if thats the case sorry.I relent there are no 80 foreigners in county cricket,there are none,we are all english.
 

brockley

International Captain
Marc why so defensive,do you not agree that counties have a lot of foreigners in their teams and 2nd xls.
BTW i could make a list if you want,do you want me too.
 

theegyptian

International Vice-Captain
The thing is there are probably 3x as many professional positions in English domestic cricket than any other country in the world – paying as competitive wages as any.

Cricket isn’t that popular in England and the amateur and junior standard is significantly less than that of SA and AUS means that it’s significantly easier for a SA or Aus to make it here.

This coupled with EU rules allowing free movement of labour + related EU Kolpak rules.

And that the English season runs by and large non concurrent to any other first class system.

Plus the historical link Britain has with its former colonies means many still have family members who live or lived in the UK + many children with wealthy parents get sent to English public schools because of the reputation of these schools

Even if the ECB wanted to stop the players coming they couldn't

It’s inevitable that England will attract players from everywhere; the counties don’t need to groom the players, the players are jumping at the opportunity. More counties, more fixtures, lower standard all means more opportunities

Once they are here and have served their time and their passport says they're british they are for all intents and purposes british.

Would it be nice if there were more home based players produced? Yes sure but cricket is slowly dying here. Many sports are struggling especially at the early developmental years outside of public schools. It is sad that there aren't more English players that come through the whole english system.

The ECB have done what they can. Spending lots of money on trying to keep grassroots game going. They incentivize playing young english players by giving out money to counties for selecting english u26s. Plus an extended 7 year qualification period (more than any other country). The EU has amended the Kolpak rule so it's harder for non EUs to come and play. But there are still loads of playerrs with EU passports who can turn up and the ECB by law can't turn them away.

Not that they should because generally they have a positive effect. Players like Madsen, Goodwin, McKenzie, Prince, Thomas aren't going to play for England but they strengthen the counties and there are only a small number of these players who aren't going to play for England even if they're good enough. The rest players like Robson, Pietersen, Trott, Ballance, Kieswetter are the slightly more unsavoury ones as they had a large part of their development overseas and it is unfair on Zimbabwe or South Africa or whoever. But when people talk about how good SA would be with KP and Trott in the team I just laugh. Both were struggling to make it in SA when they left; what justification do people have to say they would have turned out like they have if they had stayed in SA? The english county system isn't perfect but it is professional and you can play a lot of cricket on differing surfaces against different players. They gave the players a chance; the system gave them the opportunity that wasn't available elsewhere. Why should Ballance go back to Zimbabwe and play for them once he becomes good enough

Rather than complain about the loss of talent from SA, ZIM, AUS maybe those nations should think about how they need to change their system to keep the players they develop. Aus have made a start. The problem will still be hard to counter because as I've said the English game has some qualities which will still be attractive to many. i.e with the lower entry standard, competitve wages, eu labour laws.

And finally players like Stokes, Rafiq, Prior, Dernbach, Meaker, (Khawaja) shouldn't even come into this kind of debate. They all moved at a young age with their families to Britain (or Aus) looking for a better life. It wasn't their decision or promoted by the ECB it was a decision made by their families. They've embraced their new country and should be applauded for so quickly adjusting to their new lifes and making a positive contribution to their new country.
 

theegyptian

International Vice-Captain
The Ireland situation or Zimbabwe situation are the toughest because realistically neither country can offer the players what they need. There is no first class structure in ireland and they don't play test cricket and minimal odi/t20 cricket. Zimbabwe are economically dead + political instability + poor first class system.

You don't want England taking these players because it's just draining the resources of a finite number of nations than can do nothing thus Zimbabwe or Ireland are never going to improve and there situation will never get better(as pews says) - but on a micro level these players are going to do what is best for themselves and you can't blame them for that.

Short of getting China or America involved properly, cricket is going to slowly die imo.

Blame it all on EU Law imo. If there's a problem that who we tend to blame on it here. Rest of the cricketing world should be hoping that there is a referedum here and Britain leaves the EU.
 
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brockley

International Captain
I agree Egyption ecb can't stop it,the problem is the counties,short termism,essentially they are not keen on developing their talent,either import from another county,the leagues like Azaralluh,or basically steal them.
Yes sad on Robson we developed him in NSW and he was on a rookie contract 5 years ago.
Problem is ppl like Marc are in complete denial of the scale of proliferation.
I can make a list,whats the point,we know there is a proliferation of foreigners in county cricket.But Marc is in so much denial.He made a comment earlier without substantiation that if someone plays for a county then he is Englands". He didn't even make a sub conclusion that overseas players are not on offer.I just hate the attitude that we are entitled to these foreigners.
I know not all English here have that attitude,thats why i haven't gone after all English fans here,just ppl like Marc who think England is entitled to do what they want.
The biggest at fault is the ICC,they have not intervened,and yes it weakens international cricket,and i think Zimbabwe bt Pakistan inspite of this.
Despite Fawad Ahmed,i hope Australia do not go down this line,i am heartened that Fawad was a general refugee and neither parties acted inapropirately.To be honest apart from Robson,England is not our main worry its AFL.
 
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grecian

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
There's no problem with it if they meet eligibility rules. What is amusing, though, is how thin-skinned the Poms are whenever it's mentioned, even as a light hearted jape on here. I mean, if you want to pour a bucket of **** over players from other countries and the countries they play for (and English fans, like real human beings, all do it) then don't have a cry when someone raises this.

Meh, I make a few jokes about the forn contingent myself, but the reason we react often is because the gags are so ****ing boring "south african b team won again:D", and the like. Try to put some imagination into it you boring *****.
 

grecian

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I agree Egyption ecb can't stop it,the problem is the counties,short termism,essentially they are not keen on developing their talent,either import from another county,the leagues like Azaralluh,or basically steal them.
Yes sad on Robson we developed him in NSW and he was on a rookie contract 5 years ago.
Problem is ppl like Marc are in complete denial of the scale of proliferation.
I can make a list,whats the point,we know there is a proliferation of foreigners in county cricket.But Marc is in so much denial.He made a comment earlier without substantiation that if someone plays for a county then he is Englands". He didn't even make a sub conclusion that overseas players are not on offer.I just hate the attitude that we are entitled to these foreigners.
I know not all English here have that attitude,thats why i haven't gone after all English fans here,just ppl like Marc who think England is entitled to do what they want.
The biggest at fault is the ICC,they have not intervened,and yes it weakens international cricket,and i think Zimbabwe bt Pakistan inspite of this.
Despite Fawad Ahmed,i hope Australia do not go down this line,i am heartened that Fawad was a general refugee and neither parties acted inapropirately.To be honest apart from Robson,England is not our main worry its AFL.
the thing is our rules are more stringent than any others, so I guess Marc feels like me, why are we always slated for it.

In the end the bottom line is if people are qualified they should play, if good enough, anything else just seems like racism to me.
 

brockley

International Captain
Grecian now now don't use the racist card,ppl are just dirty the England side and county sides have so many foreigners,its an unfair advantage,but to be fair NZ and associate sides do it too.
Grecian my roots are British i am unlikely to bag a country my forefathers came from,unless there is a valid reason.
 

Dan

Hall of Fame Member
brockley, stop with the personal targeting of marc. You can debate his position without resorting to that type of crap.
 

benchmark00

Request Your Custom Title Now!
brockley, stop with the personal targeting of marc. You can debate his position without resorting to that type of crap.
wtf? You're kidding yourself right? Mate you don't have to say something just because someone reports a post.

Fair bit of crap going around all right. Wouldn't say it's completely from Brockley though.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
TE's post is more or less spot on. The ECB is really doing its best to make it harder, not easier for quote-unquote "foreigners" to play here as domestics.

They're slightly hamstrung by the fact that most counties care far more about what's good for themselves than English cricket or the national side and they get more bang for their buck with guys like Robson, Hogan, Jaques et al than they would with a jobbing county journeyman.

As an example on how things are being tightened up, Trent Copeland, who played for Northants as a proper overseas player this year can't come back in 2014 because it will be more than two years since he last played international cricket.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Marc why so defensive,do you not agree that counties have a lot of foreigners in their teams and 2nd xls.
BTW i could make a list if you want,do you want me too.
Since I've asked you to produce a list to prove this stupid number of 80 on more than one occasion, I think it's obvious that I want you to.
 

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