The English Way

[Xuhaib]

Caddick
Gough
Harmison
Hoggard
\Fraser

Looking at those figures most of England top fast bowlers have very similar figures, 200-250 wickets @ an average of 28-30.Going by these figures all these bowlers are top class and below world class bowlers of other countries during that time period(Aus,Pak,Wi & Sa in particular).So what is the reason why England struggle to produce truly great fast bowlers also it seems England is very quick in pulling the plug most of these cricketers continue to play FC well after they play their final test.

Thoughts?

 

[Athlai]

South African quicks not migrating as often as the bats would be the problem IMO.

 

[Spikey]

South African quicks not migrating as often as the bats would be the problem IMO.

 

[Athlai]

South African quicks not migrating as often as the bats would be the problem IMO.

 

[Teja.]

Haha, Anderson and Broad will probably end up with similar records IMO. Anderson will end up with about 275-300 at a similar average and Broad will really come good but a bad start will mean he'll end up averaging only around 29-30 and end up with about 250 wickets.

Tremmers has potential to average below 25 though, IMO.

 

[vcs]

I am happy this thread is not about Indian quicks.

 

[benchmark00]

South African quicks not migrating as often as the bats would be the problem IMO.

Good point. Agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Spikey]

 

[GIMH]

Don't know if the stats bear this out, but my perception has always been that our top quicks struggle overseas.

 

[grecian]

Would say that Fraser, if he hadn't had injury problems that was horrifically diagnosed, Probably would of averaged much lower.

Other than that, I've no idea.

 

[Howe_zat]

I daresay a lot of poor selection policies pre-Fletcher have had a large hand in this. Angus Fraser in particular comes to mind.

As for Anderson, he may well have had a much better first 5 years (which is what currently pins him to a mediocre average at best) were it not for the questionable involvement of coaches like Cooley.

A lot of them were just as good as their figures would suggest, of course.

Don't know if the stats bear this out, but my perception has always been that our top quicks struggle overseas.

Since 1990, England pace bowlers have averaged 31.2 at home and 33.1 away.

Probably just a result of surfaces & conditions generally being more bowler-friendly here, and it's not really that much of a difference anyway.

 

[Jacknife]

I daresay a lot of poor selection policies pre-Fletcher have had a large hand in this. Angus Fraser in particular comes to mind.

As for Anderson, he may well have had a much better first 5 years (which is what currently pins him to a mediocre average at best) were it not for the questionable involvement of coaches like Cooley.

A lot of them were just as good as their figures would suggest, of course.



Since 1990, England pace bowlers have averaged 31.2 at home and 33.1 away.

Probably just a result of surfaces & conditions generally being more bowler-friendly here, and it's not really that much of a difference anyway.

Yes, there''s no doubt in my mind, that Cooley arsed Jimmy right up, when he was involved with England. If Jimmy continues like he has done the last 2 years (averages 26 last 2 years), he should get his average well under 30.
Nasser made a point that could be related to this, when he was talking about central contacts and when England players, used to roll up to play for England, before central contracts, they were basically knackered from playing constantly for they County side. Therein the bowlers, were constantly fighting fitness and had trouble peaking for international matches. Obviously, that isn't the whole story, to the question but before central contracts, the players who played for England were County players first, England players second.

 

[Furball]

Haha, Anderson and Broad will probably end up with similar records IMO. Anderson will end up with about 275-300 at a similar average and Broad will really come good but a bad start will mean he'll end up averaging only around 29-30 and end up with about 250 wickets.

Tremmers has potential to average below 25 though, IMO.

Anderson's 28 and currently has 215 Test wickets.

Provided he stays injury free he'll easily pass 400.

 

[zaremba]

It's an interesting question.
Similarly we've also had no batsman for many years that's averaged over 50. Barrington presumably the last.

 

[Uppercut]

The usual reasons apply. Cricket isn't a mass participation sport here and the weather conditions mean aspiring cricketers can't practice anywhere near as much as they can overseas.

World class fast bowlers are really, really difficult to find anyway, so you can't read too much into it when there aren't any.

 

[Woodster]

Anderson's 28 and currently has 215 Test wickets.

Provided he stays injury free he'll easily pass 400.

To pass 400 Test wickets would be a massive effort, even for Jimmy. Would be surprised if he managed that.

 

[Howe_zat]

Anderson's 28 and currently has 215 Test wickets.

Provided he stays injury free he'll easily pass 400.

Isn't easily done by anyone, ever.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

Jimmy should get 300 but then again i thought that about Hoggy when went past the 200mark so things can change quickly.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Last three years Jimmy's taken 46, 40 & 57 wickets with 10 already in 2011. If he takes 40 for the next four years that'll be him over 350 easily.

He could yet end up out highest ever wicket taker, but fitness is always a big "if".

As to the question in hand, it's hard to say. English seaming wickets seem to mean we've produced fast-medium bowlers who don't necessarily prosper in alien conditions. &, As Mr z points out, we haven't produced that many ATG cricketers at all in the last 40-45 years. Botham is probably in most people's AT England XI and Deadly & perhaps RGDW have cases to be made for them, but that's probably it.

Realistically we haven't had unarguably the world's best test team since the mid 50s. Illingworth's early 70s team were up there, but the soon to be excluded SA were probably #1 at the time.

 

[Outswinger@Pace]

As to the question in hand, it's hard to say. English seaming wickets seem to mean we've produced fast-medium bowlers who don't necessarily prosper in alien conditions. &, As Mr z points out, we haven't produced that many ATG cricketers at all in the last 40-45 years. Botham is probably in most people's AT England XI and Deadly & perhaps RGDW have cases to be made for them, but that's probably it.

For sheer impact value, John Snow is perhaps the greatest pace bowler your nation has produced since Trueman. All his peers hold him in the highest regard and I wouldn't bother too much about what his statistical records say. A good case can be made for his inclusion among the ATG fast bowlers, IMHO!