Mark Waugh overrated?

[SaeedAnwar]

Mark Waugh only had a average of 41 in tests and 39 in Odi's, why is he rated among the finest batsmen of modern era?

[zaremba]

39 is pretty good in ODIs. I suppose most people reckon that 41 in Tests didn't really do justice to his incredible ability. Did you see much of him playing? Looked in a different class to almost all those around him. He's in a similar sort of bracket to David Gower I suppose.

Also, looks like Bono.

[Teja.]

I'd rate him as an ATG ODI Batsman and 39 is a brilliant average for his time(or any time for that matter). In tests he never had the temperament to do justice to his incredible ability. I'd rate him as the most stylish Batsman I've seen. It's as if he was born to bat. Noone bar SRT made batting look as easy as Waugh jr. did.

[Sir Alex]

A poor man's Laxman. He never did full justice to his talent. I used to adore his strokes when he got going.

[Migara]

I am perplexed when some people rate him ahead of de SIlva both as test and an ODI batsman

[Prince EWS]

Originally Posted by zaremba

I suppose most people reckon that 41 in Tests didn't really do justice to his incredible ability.

Indeed, and not doing justice to one's ability usually gets one quite a bit over-rated. Mark Waugh could've been a great batsman, but he wasn't. I don't really care about his "incredible ability" if he simply wasn't able to perform as anything more than a decent-to-good player.

His record is odd though - for someone who's so widely thought of as not having the concentration to make big totals as often as he perhaps could have, there's a huge difference between his Test and First Class records. He played 49 First Class games for Australia that weren't Tests and averaged 71 in them to go with his average of 59 for Essex and his average of 53 for New South Wales. This doesn't suggest a player with a concentration or application problem, to me, but a player who perhaps struggled a bit with the pressure of Test cricket.

[Jakester1288]

I must admit, I cannot recall any footage of his batting that I've seen. His catching though, was amazing.

From what I've heard regarding his batting, he was an aggressive strokemaker, who helped mould the modern day opening batsmen. When I'm not too busy or being entertained by other things, I might search him on YouTube and see what I can find.

[BoyBrumby]

Originally Posted by Prince EWS

Indeed, and not doing justice to one's ability usually gets one quite a bit over-rated. Mark Waugh could've been a great batsman, but he wasn't. I don't really care about his "incredible ability" if he simply wasn't able to perform as anything more than a decent-to-good player.

His record is odd though - for someone who's so widely thought of as not having the concentration to make big totals as often as he perhaps could have, there's a huge difference between his Test and First Class records. He play 49 First Class games for Australia that weren't Tests and averaged 71 in them to go with his average of 59 for Essex and his average of 53 for New South Wales. This doesn't suggest a player with a concentration or application problem, to me, but a player who perhaps struggled a bit with the pressure of Test cricket.

Kudos. Love posts like that; challenges and counters a lazy received opinion (one which I freely admit to having held myself) about a player.

I think because Junior looked so supremely at ease there's a tendancy to assume when he got out it was because of a lapse of concentration rather than a deficiency in technique or want in ability.

[Sir Alex]

The curse of the Marks?

[zaremba]

Originally Posted by Prince EWS

Indeed, and not doing justice to one's ability usually gets one quite a bit over-rated. Mark Waugh could've been a great batsman, but he wasn't. I don't really care about his "incredible ability" if he simply wasn't able to perform as anything more than a decent-to-good player.

His record is odd though - for someone who's so widely thought of as not having the concentration to make big totals as often as he perhaps could have, there's a huge difference between his Test and First Class records. He played 49 First Class games for Australia that weren't Tests and averaged 71 in them to go with his average of 59 for Essex and his average of 53 for New South Wales. This doesn't suggest a player with a concentration or application problem, to me, but a player who perhaps struggled a bit with the pressure of Test cricket.

All true. FTR I'm not suggesting that he deserved praise for underachieving in Tests. But he certainly did have incredible ability. He also had a hunger for runs at FC level where as you say he constantly churned them out. He was an absolute run machine for Essex.

[Prince EWS]

Originally Posted by zaremba

All true. FTR I'm not suggesting that he deserved praise for underachieving in Tests. But he certainly did have incredible ability. He also had a hunger for runs at FC level where as you say he constantly churned them out. He was an absolute run machine for Essex.

Looking back at my post, it kind of looks like I was attacking/attempting to disagree with yours. I wasn't ftr; I was just elaborating on it. Apologies.

[Uppercut]

Have to agree with the PEWS here. I have a lot of time for Mark Waugh- in particular, I'd quite possibly rank him as the best fielder (in tests) of all time. But I do think that, when we look back on a career, we have to look at what he did rather than what we perceive that he could have done.

[Shri]

Originally Posted by Jakester1288

I must admit, I cannot recall any footage of his batting that I've seen. His catching though, was amazing.

From what I've heard regarding his batting, he was an aggressive strokemaker, who helped mould the modern day opening batsmen. When I'm not too busy or being entertained by other things, I might search him on YouTube and see what I can find.

Nah he just followed what Jayasuriya and Kaluwithrane started.

[zaremba]

Originally Posted by Prince EWS

Looking back at my post, it kind of looks like I was attacking/attempting to disagree with yours. I wasn't ftr; I was just elaborating on it. Apologies.

Not at all PEWS - I think we're in full agreement - and in the first draft of my post I was going to express the same confusion that you did about his apparently carefree batting v his run-machine nature in FC cricket. Which is something I don't really understand. For me, I can't help but associate Waugh and Gower; yet they are very different cases because apart from anything else Gower's FC average was lower than his Test average, the reason being, you felt, that he genuinely couldn't be arsed, which also played a part in why he didn't do (even) better in Tests. With Mark Waugh, it must be something else. It's hard to put your finger on why he didn't do better in Tests. It could have been the pressure of Tests, as you suggest, but he never particularly seemed susceptible to it (or at least he didn't when playing against England!)

[vcs]

My favourite Mark Waugh innings was in an ODI match against England where Australia were chasing a big total (Robin Smith had scored a brilliant 160 odd) and he made a huge run-chase look effortless.

Personally, I think both Damien Martyn and Laxman beat out Mark Waugh in the sheer grace and elegance stakes.