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What would it take to bring cricket back to Pakistan
- Thread starter Faisal1985
- Start date
PhoenixFire
International Coach
My bad, I thought that someone had made a specific mention of the Pakistani government and nuclear weapons before GF made his post.
bagapath
International Captain
for international cricket to return to pakistan, the people of pakistan need to work towards a huge image make over of their country. the government is corrupt. the military is two faced. the judiciary and the police force are defunct. at least that is what everyone thinks so.
if the world doesn't care enough to help the people of pakistan even during a huge natural disaster like the floods that has crippled that nation, then there is something terribly wrong about the image of pakistan. they should first of all accept this and stop blaming americans (and indians) for all their problems and start to look towards tackling the fundamentalism taking over their society. better quality education (not the kind taught by mullas) and a little more open mindedness would take them all in the right direction, I think.
unless the powerful nations of the world, and the powerful nations in the cricketing world, begin to trust pakistan as a nation and stop seeing it as a failed state, I don't see any international sporting event returning to that country.
If all of that sounded like an Indian looking down on Pakistan, let me confess to you guys what I am really really scared of. A serious security lapse resulting in loss of many human lives is waiting to happen in India any time. The serial blasts in Jaipur during the first IPL and the bomb that, fortunately, failed to kill anyone in Bangalore during this year's IPL are not going to be the last attempts by terrorists to commit mass murder during sporting events in this country. All the security and brave talk and millions earned through TV commercials cannot keep all the suicide bombers away all the time. A huge paradigm shift in the geo political climate should happen to prevent a disaster like that hurting India in the near future. Honestly, I expect (and fear) that things would get much much worse on that front before the positive changes begin to take place. I really hope I am completely wrong for having this fear in my mind. As it has been said many times in the past, it is the same enemy Pakistan has fallen victim to. If India doesn't stay alert it will have to face the same music Pakistan is facing these days from the international community.
if the world doesn't care enough to help the people of pakistan even during a huge natural disaster like the floods that has crippled that nation, then there is something terribly wrong about the image of pakistan. they should first of all accept this and stop blaming americans (and indians) for all their problems and start to look towards tackling the fundamentalism taking over their society. better quality education (not the kind taught by mullas) and a little more open mindedness would take them all in the right direction, I think.
unless the powerful nations of the world, and the powerful nations in the cricketing world, begin to trust pakistan as a nation and stop seeing it as a failed state, I don't see any international sporting event returning to that country.
If all of that sounded like an Indian looking down on Pakistan, let me confess to you guys what I am really really scared of. A serious security lapse resulting in loss of many human lives is waiting to happen in India any time. The serial blasts in Jaipur during the first IPL and the bomb that, fortunately, failed to kill anyone in Bangalore during this year's IPL are not going to be the last attempts by terrorists to commit mass murder during sporting events in this country. All the security and brave talk and millions earned through TV commercials cannot keep all the suicide bombers away all the time. A huge paradigm shift in the geo political climate should happen to prevent a disaster like that hurting India in the near future. Honestly, I expect (and fear) that things would get much much worse on that front before the positive changes begin to take place. I really hope I am completely wrong for having this fear in my mind. As it has been said many times in the past, it is the same enemy Pakistan has fallen victim to. If India doesn't stay alert it will have to face the same music Pakistan is facing these days from the international community.
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Shri
Mr. Glass
Awta.
Jono
Virat Kohli (c)
Indeed
bagapath
International Captain
even now there is sympathy for the poor pakistanis suffering in the floods... but the difference between hurricane K and the present situation is that US could support itself after the disaster; so, america being a nuclear state was not anybody else's problem... but Pakistan needs money from outside... so such questions will be asked before people take out their wallets... btw, india has given 5 million in aid, which is commendable considering what the pakistani politicians have made their public think of india...
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Faisal1985
International Vice-Captain
Ignorant to the fullest.
Faisal1985
International Vice-Captain
Good post and i agree.
No body is here (from Pakistan) to defend its corrupt government or the security situation in Pakistan at the moment.
My concern was to see how people look at Pak. With a sentiment of helping the common man or with a sentiment to say **** off. Sadly mostly i saw **** off. Which is fine..but don't forget, today its us who are getting the sharp side of the knife tomorrow it could be you.
In all honesty U.S. has failed to bring down Al Qaida and Taliban in Afghanistan. They have not allowed Pak to cease its western borders either due to which a lot of terrorists have poured into the North Western areas of Pak. The amount of blood shed that we have seen over the last 10 years at the hands of terrorists, i don't think any country has even tasted that yet. On one hand we lose our best generals and soldiers. Our military HQ are attacked and on the other we hear baloney like Pak Military is 2 faced. Yeah we supported the Talibans when U.S. wanted us to and we brought down USSR by doing that.
Our ISI had links with them back then and there may be links even now and those are also protected links just in case the U.S. wants to "negotiate" and i bet you in the end this is exactly what U.S. will end up doing and give it a fancy name. You can't expect the ISI not to have links with Taliban when they had them for decades. If you know anything about this war you would know that it is a lot of Former Taliban's who have helped ISI and Pak Military to hit the anit Nato/Pak rouge groups calling themselves Pakistani Talibans..without inside info those Drone attacks or those Military hits are not possible and this info comes from the pro Pakistani people with in these groups working as spies. Its more then just a gun war going on here.
It would be a good idea to pay more attention to what's actually happening then to rant the general rhetoric where you see fit.
PhoenixFire
International Coach
I dunno about anyone else, but I've only heard support and good wished for the people in Pakistan, especially in the UK. I haven't heard anyone speak with a '**** off' attitude.
Furball
Evil Scotsman
No, but I don't remember the American government seeking hundred of millions of dollars in foreign aid either.
The plight of the Pakistani people affected by the floods is being exacerbated by the fact that they're not getting the help they need from their government, because their government seemingly can't afford it.
bagapath
International Captain
Not in the positive light Faisal. I am not saying whether it is right or wrong. but as an observer i can assure you with clarity that for most non pakistanis there is nothing of pakistan that can elicit a positive reaction from them. there are no role models in pakistan and that is showing up big time. i cant imagine any one pakistani who could represent his/her country to the more powerful nations, be the face of pakistan and make good things happen for his/her people.
I assume that was not directed at me because I did not rant any general rhetoric and also because you had agreed with my post in your first line. Anyways, to clarify my position, i think it is all about creating a positive image about the country. Even if you don't have a gandhi or a mandela in your country at the moment you need a obama at least. FFS india is managing with sachin, you need at least an imran khan or a nusrat to be the face of pakistan to the rest of the world.
Black_Warrior
Cricketer Of The Year
While I agree with your frank assessment, but I also feel that the rest of the world has to take a step too to find that face, that Imran or Nusrat instead of living in a cocoon and being fed Fox News coverage. There are a lot of talented writers, musicians, filmmakers, sports-persons in the country but for a large majority of non Pakistanis, they are invisible.
The reason a Ratnam or Vikram reflect the face of South Indian cinema for me is not because someone came up to my door step and introduced them to me, I explored and found them myself.
I feel that a large proportion of people are just too comfortable in their self built cocoons to actually take that step.
Faisal1985
International Vice-Captain
No it wasn't directed at you Bagapath. It was a general comment.
The last part of your post is very good...I am a big supporter of a guy like Imran Khan, its a pity that people like Imran never come forward as winners. I really had a lot of hopes when Benazir came back only to find out that she was assassinated..she had what it took to set things right for Pak. But now PPP has become a big joke with Zardari and his son is also going to follow him more or less...the other parties like PML Q or N are just useless...
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
Its difficult not to fall into the trap of stereotyping or using cliched, rhetorical terms when one is discussing problems that have festered for half a century or more and seem to keep getting worse but avoiding those traps and being able to look at the issue/s dispassionately is what clear thinking is all about. In this debate that should apply to both Pakistanis and non-Pakistanis; but as I said, it is difficult.
However much it may appear to be the case from outside, it would be completely unreasonable to say that there are no role models in Pakistan but can we blame Bagapath for thinking so or saying it? It does appear so from outside for we look at the political, religious and other sundry leaders that we hear of. Surely there are thinkers, philosophers, writers, human-rights activists etc etc in Pakistan who are as exercised and anguished by the growing problems of their country as the rest of the world - and they have much greater stakes than the rest of us.
To my limited thinking, besides the crisis of leadership, which is always an issue in such situations, its the complete failure of institutions that has let down Pakistan. I do not include the military in this. We have a problem of corruption of mammoth proportion on our side of the border too but we are slightly better placed, I think in two important respects. Our higher judiciary and our election commission, two constitutional authorities that are independent of the executive, are above board and have been headed by individuals of impeccable credentials who have refused to be cowed down by the political leaders in power irrespective of their own political persuasions.
The Chief Justice of India and The Chief Election Commissioner may appear to be far removed from the power center but trust me they have a huge role in keeping our country (and its political leaders who are not much different from counterparts in the region) relatively in check.
One had great hopes from the judiciary in Pakistan when it rose up against Musharraf and the popular support it enjoyed amongst the masses. One thought, here is the time in history when the Pakistani people led by its judiciary will move towards setting the country back on track but that opportunity seems to have been lost. . . forever . . . or so it appears.
Its not easy in a complex set up where problems have been allowed to fester for decades and leadership has refused to rise to the occasion, for individuals to appear from nowhere and change things. These do not happen very often in history but they do at times. The odds are greatly stacked against the unknown (relatively), right-thinking individual to emerge as a leader of a country of Pakistan's size and take control. The CJ of the Supreme Court had a fabulous chance to do something but it fizzled out. Imran had his celebrity behind him but listen to him for any long period of time and one can see how he is desperately trying to remain in contention as a "successful politician" - his idealistic talk has been more than tempered by the "right sound bites" to keep his constituency on the "right side". We talk of a Mandela and a Gandhi; these giants dont just stand out for delivering to their people what seemed so eminently undeliverable but much before that, for saying what the people were not used to hearing. Gandhi's reining in of the Hindu right wing and his championing of Hindu-Muslim brotherhood earned him the wrath of wide sections of the majority community's right but it did not deter him. One day they killed him. Mandela is till date undeterred in his complete opposition to "reverse racism". You do not become a great leader by pleasing the majority, you do it by doing the right thing - irrespective.
Imran is not man enough to do that. Imran is not the leader, in my humble opinion, some seem to think he will make.
I am sure Pakistan will come out of the massive problems it faces today but what worries me is the way every passing year adds to their woes. The time to resolve the problems is NOW (some would say long past) and yet those that matter do not, as seen from the distance from which I see, seem to be able to focus on the real, major, most important and fast becoming MOST URGENT issues.
However much it may appear to be the case from outside, it would be completely unreasonable to say that there are no role models in Pakistan but can we blame Bagapath for thinking so or saying it? It does appear so from outside for we look at the political, religious and other sundry leaders that we hear of. Surely there are thinkers, philosophers, writers, human-rights activists etc etc in Pakistan who are as exercised and anguished by the growing problems of their country as the rest of the world - and they have much greater stakes than the rest of us.
To my limited thinking, besides the crisis of leadership, which is always an issue in such situations, its the complete failure of institutions that has let down Pakistan. I do not include the military in this. We have a problem of corruption of mammoth proportion on our side of the border too but we are slightly better placed, I think in two important respects. Our higher judiciary and our election commission, two constitutional authorities that are independent of the executive, are above board and have been headed by individuals of impeccable credentials who have refused to be cowed down by the political leaders in power irrespective of their own political persuasions.
The Chief Justice of India and The Chief Election Commissioner may appear to be far removed from the power center but trust me they have a huge role in keeping our country (and its political leaders who are not much different from counterparts in the region) relatively in check.
One had great hopes from the judiciary in Pakistan when it rose up against Musharraf and the popular support it enjoyed amongst the masses. One thought, here is the time in history when the Pakistani people led by its judiciary will move towards setting the country back on track but that opportunity seems to have been lost. . . forever . . . or so it appears.
Its not easy in a complex set up where problems have been allowed to fester for decades and leadership has refused to rise to the occasion, for individuals to appear from nowhere and change things. These do not happen very often in history but they do at times. The odds are greatly stacked against the unknown (relatively), right-thinking individual to emerge as a leader of a country of Pakistan's size and take control. The CJ of the Supreme Court had a fabulous chance to do something but it fizzled out. Imran had his celebrity behind him but listen to him for any long period of time and one can see how he is desperately trying to remain in contention as a "successful politician" - his idealistic talk has been more than tempered by the "right sound bites" to keep his constituency on the "right side". We talk of a Mandela and a Gandhi; these giants dont just stand out for delivering to their people what seemed so eminently undeliverable but much before that, for saying what the people were not used to hearing. Gandhi's reining in of the Hindu right wing and his championing of Hindu-Muslim brotherhood earned him the wrath of wide sections of the majority community's right but it did not deter him. One day they killed him. Mandela is till date undeterred in his complete opposition to "reverse racism". You do not become a great leader by pleasing the majority, you do it by doing the right thing - irrespective.
Imran is not man enough to do that. Imran is not the leader, in my humble opinion, some seem to think he will make.
I am sure Pakistan will come out of the massive problems it faces today but what worries me is the way every passing year adds to their woes. The time to resolve the problems is NOW (some would say long past) and yet those that matter do not, as seen from the distance from which I see, seem to be able to focus on the real, major, most important and fast becoming MOST URGENT issues.
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
I must add that the independent media in India has a role to play too but when I look at the Pakistani media I do find pockets of great journalism that seems unaffected by the "say-the-right-thing" disease that affects societies where media is not free.
I think the problem is more of people , a complete generation if not two, having lived through this lack of institutions that we tend to take for granted in the developed world and even, to a lesser extent, in India. Without a taste of what living with such institutions, its not surprising that people tend to gravitate towards the military in times of absolute despair. This appears suicidal from a far but is understandable in the peculiar circumstances that prevail making it that much more difficult for a change to come because people "demand" it and which is why the opportunity that appears to have been lost in the judiciary's 'uprising' against Musharraf is so unfortunate.
I think the problem is more of people , a complete generation if not two, having lived through this lack of institutions that we tend to take for granted in the developed world and even, to a lesser extent, in India. Without a taste of what living with such institutions, its not surprising that people tend to gravitate towards the military in times of absolute despair. This appears suicidal from a far but is understandable in the peculiar circumstances that prevail making it that much more difficult for a change to come because people "demand" it and which is why the opportunity that appears to have been lost in the judiciary's 'uprising' against Musharraf is so unfortunate.
bagapath
International Captain
SJS Sir.... I do agree that there are eminent thinkers and philosophers and scientists aplenty in Pakistan. And they will be able to lead their people out of this rut the country has gotten into, no doubt. But unless they stand up and become more visible to the world it will be difficult to associate Pakistan with reason, wisdom and peace. It is sad because I do believe that great nation is capable of playing the most vital role in east west relations, more so than India due to it being one of the power centers of the Muslim World. If a country can do something about getting Muslims their due respect all over the Western World it will be Pakistan. Imagine a Pakistani diplomat or a scholar making efforts to bring the Pakistani perspective to the table instead of an idiotic half baked terrorist engineer planting a car bomb in NYC. When I say that country has no role models I didn't mean they don't really have anyone capable of being a role model, I just meant that I couldn't see any. And, yes, you are right about Imran's limitations. I did not say he is that role model but I wanted him to step up and meet the promise he showed before. You are also correct about the judiciary and EC in India. But please note that the PM, despite his weaknesses on certain issues, is still a clean man. An incorruptible erudite economist sits on top of the Indian government. In Pakistan you have a typical corrupt politician representing the country internationally. Remember his "friendly chat" with Sarah Palin? Embarrassing!. That is why I said in my first post that Pakistan needs an image makeover. Being children of the same culture, we Indians can imagine the wealth of knowledge and wisdom hidden in Pakistan. But 20% more corruption and 20% less education than India have pushed Pakistan behind by centuries.
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SJS
Hall of Fame Member
Cant say I disagree with any of that :-)
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
There is one more thing that needs to be done in Pakistan. They need to put some of the issues that have been all their leaders have concentrated upon, for political or genuinely nationalistic reasons, on the back burner and concentrate on nation building. Of course, I refer to issues like Kashmir.
I am not advising Pakistan to forget about Kashmir but both India and Pakistan have far too much focus on this one problem and howsoever important it may be, it does not justify the complete lack of focus on so many other important matters that the country needs to be looking at which have such a vital bearing on Pakistan's future.
Some politicians (on both sides of the border) may have vested interests in keeping this issue so much in the public gaze so as to deflect scrutiny from their own acts of commission and omission but it is the people of the nations who will be held accountable (along with the leaders) for failing to force other, and much more urgent as well as important, issues to the forefront.
Kashmir and the dispute about its is not going away in the short run but time is absolutely critical and running out for doing something to stop the edge of the cliff being reached. It is here that the leaders of all hues and professions have failed them.
Sixty years have passed with no resolutions to Kashmir. Another twenty are not going to make any great difference but these twenty years could be utilised to completely turn around how the next century turns out for Pakistan if the leaders are deprived of this 'crutch' which is the only one they have - for without it, most of them, including the military, wouldn't have two legs to stand upon without having to show real results.
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
By the way, this is going a bit off topic.
Coming back to the cricket, I wish India would play Pakistan on neutral venues as Australia did. We don't need a series every year as BCCI stupidly arranged earlier but one every two years would be very nice for the fans and the cricketers on both sides.
Politicians should get out of this as long as security issues are taken care of.
Coming back to the cricket, I wish India would play Pakistan on neutral venues as Australia did. We don't need a series every year as BCCI stupidly arranged earlier but one every two years would be very nice for the fans and the cricketers on both sides.
Politicians should get out of this as long as security issues are taken care of.