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Trescothick out of Ashes

tooextracool

International Coach
aussie said:
I mentioned him & Butcher as possible replacements but if i were to pick one i'd go Butcher since has has runs vs Australia in Australia plus he had a good season with the bat. I don't think the likes of Shah, Joyce or Key if another injury occured would make runs, i'd rather Vaughan back than them.
Between Butcher and Shah for mine. Neither of the 2 were really dropped from the England side in the first place, Butcher got injured at at time when he was a vital part of our middle order, while Shah was always going to be a fill in player with all the injuries on that tour. I dont think theres much point in picking Key when he hasnt set the domestic scene alight in the last season(even though he was unlucky to be dropped from the test side as well) and from the little ive seen of Joyce(in ODIs) ive hardly been impressed with his technique.
I strongly suspect though that its between Key and Shah for the England selectors, largely because they prefer not having anyone with 'scars' from past Ashes series and Butcher doesnt have much of a career left in tests anyways.
 

wpdavid

International Coach
tooextracool said:
Between Butcher and Shah for mine. Neither of the 2 were really dropped from the England side in the first place, Butcher got injured at at time when he was a vital part of our middle order, while Shah was always going to be a fill in player with all the injuries on that tour. I dont think theres much point in picking Key when he hasnt set the domestic scene alight in the last season(even though he was unlucky to be dropped from the test side as well) and from the little ive seen of Joyce(in ODIs) ive hardly been impressed with his technique.
I strongly suspect though that its between Key and Shah for the England selectors, largely because they prefer not having anyone with 'scars' from past Ashes series and Butcher doesnt have much of a career left in tests anyways.
Plus Key & Shah are actually out there in the reserves squad, which helps. As for Butcher, it's easily forgotten that he's younger than half the Aus side, but he looks like yesterday's man now. tbh I'd prefer him to Key as well, but it's not going to happen.
 

wpdavid

International Coach
steds said:
Yes, after they went 4-0 down like Håk said.
Well, if we're going to get picky, none of Hick, Cork or Gough played in that series anyway. Memories ..... :p
 

tooextracool

International Coach
silentstriker said:
Stress related illness? What he volunteers in Iraq in between the English tours? Either you're in or you're out. Constant cherry picking reeks of complete toolness. You cause harm to the side. Plus he was good to go and then two failures later, it magically resurfaced again?

Your stress went away until the Aussies found you out? Please.
I think its ridiculous to come to a conclusion like that when you dont really know the reason behind his decision. I think its pretty obvious that its family related, as it certainly seems to affect him a lot more on tours. On the whole if he doesnt seem to be able to focus on his game, it was the right thing to do. Obviously his decision to play in this series must have been influenced by how big the series actually is for both sides, and after playing a few games he may have realised that he was still affected by his condition and it would be better for the team if someone else played instead. Yes it would have been better had he made this decision before coming to Australia, but at least hes given England one more warm up(he could so easily have done it just before the 1st test) to prepare the likes of Cook for opening the batting as well as whoever bats at 3.
 

crickhowell

U19 Vice-Captain
Right, I'm going to speak from experience and really wish I could rip all you people criticising him new ones. I have depression and it ruined cricket for me completely for a couple of years.

I was playing school cricket with only a handful of parents watching the games and I felt like the whole world was scruitinising my every mistake and it made me keep stuffing up over and over again and I ended up with the yips and I think Tresco may have a similar problem but of course he does have the whole world watching so I can't even imagine how he feels about it.
He deserves some respect for pulling out rather than sticking around for the entire tour and ending up a mental and physical wreck, I put on a lot of weight during the peak of my depression for the simple fact that I couldn't get myself to get up and do anything and I love exercise.

He also has a young daughter and being away from her for months at a time must tear him apart and that is even worse for his cricket, not everyone is like Shane Warne and can play through scandal and personal problems. I know I could never be an international cricketer because I need my family support every day and I think thats what he needs, along with a lengthy break from cricket and a good talk with Michael Slater and Mark Richardson.

He needs to be left alone with his family so he can work through this, cricket already has a high suicide rate in it's former players, we don't need him hanging himself in a Sydney hotel room.
 

Woodster

International Captain
I dont think theres much point in picking Key when he hasnt set the domestic scene alight in the last season(even though he was unlucky to be dropped from the test side as well)
This is true, and if anything is going to go against Key it is the fact he had an average domestic season. But how many times have we seen Fletcher pull someone out that isn't setting the County scene alight but seems at ease in the Test scene. I think Shah looks a decent option also, just fancy having someone thats been to Oz and played Test cricket there before.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
wpdavid said:
Plus Key & Shah are actually out there in the reserves squad, which helps. As for Butcher, it's easily forgotten that he's younger than half the Aus side, but he looks like yesterday's man now. tbh I'd prefer him to Key as well, but it's not going to happen.
Is the reserve squad even in Australia yet? IIRC they were due to fly in at the end of the month. Really when the squad was selected i suggested how it was absolutely absurd that there were 3 back up bowlers and only one back up batsman, with Tresco always likely to encounter another dose of his mysterious illness. This means that whoever flies in is going to be severely jet lagged with no practice whatsoever under his belt before the first test, yet if one of the other batsmen wake up in the morning of the test match with a stomach bug, Shah or Key will end up in the side.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Woodster said:
But how many times have we seen Fletcher pull someone out that isn't setting the County scene alight but seems at ease in the Test scene.
Ver rarely IMO. Certainly out of all the players that will be starting in the first test i think nearly all of them came into test cricket with excellent domestic performances behind their belt. Nonetheless Key has done enough in his 2 seasons prior to the last one as well as his test performances in SA to suggest that he might not go too badly.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
steds said:
Yes, after they went 4-0 down like Håk said.
Considering how many players we lost in that series, it wasnt too bad at all to be honest. By the end of the series i think we were digging into our 3rd XI to be honest, especially in the bowling department.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
TT Boy said:
He wants to play but not against Australia or in India or against any team where the prospect of failure is more than likely. When do we next play Bangladesh?
and as we all know his record against India is so very miserable averaging nearly 60. In fact his record against India is better than it is against any other team thats not bangladesh. Im sure the reason why he flew all the way over to both India and Australia and played in the warm ups before heading back was because of the fear of failure.
 

archie mac

International Coach
Last Ashes tour is was Thorpe and now Tres. I suppose these things did happen it former times, but were covered up because of the stigma.

They now believe that Charlie Macartney missed a couple of Tests in 1920/21 because of depression (shell shock) suffered because of the great war.
 

Langeveldt

Soutie
silentstriker said:
Stress related illness? What he volunteers in Iraq in between the English tours? Either you're in or you're out. Constant cherry picking reeks of complete toolness. You cause harm to the side. Plus he was good to go and then two failures later, it magically resurfaced again?

Your stress went away until the Aussies found you out? Please.
Silenstriker seems to have little or no knowledge of what "mental illness" is..

Although to be honest, Tresco should just admit what his problem is.. Nobody would look down on him for saying he has bi-polar disorder if he does have something like it, and it would clear a lot of things up..
 

tooextracool

International Coach
PY said:
Cook and Strauss then and the Bell/Collingwood debate gets put away for a while. Who at three though is the big question now?
Yea i think thats the big question now. Tbh i dont think any of them are capable no 3s, but out of Bell,Colly and KP i think Bell probably is most equipped to bat at 3. Id have Colly at 4 and KP at 5 largely because i think the further away KP is from the new ball, the better he'll play. His aggressive approach is always going to get him into trouble with the new ball and by batting lower down the order it would also mean that he'll come in to face Warne rather than Lee and Mcgrath.
 

Woodster

International Captain
Ver rarely IMO. Certainly out of all the players that will be starting in the first test i think nearly all of them came into test cricket with excellent domestic performances behind their belt.
Not sure I'd agree with that at all. Think you'll find most of the side have better Test averages than they have at First Class level. I think it would be easier to name players that were picked on outstanding domestic statistics (I'll give you Pietersen). Sure they were identified as good players, but even the likes of Strauss, one couldn't have predicted how well he's taken to Test cricket going simply off his performances for Middlesex. Same for Freddie, Vaughan, Harmison, even Trescothick.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Woodster said:
Not sure I'd agree with that at all. Think you'll find most of the side have better Test averages than they have at First Class level. I think it would be easier to name players that were picked on outstanding domestic statistics (I'll give you Pietersen). Sure they were identified as good players, but even the likes of Strauss, one couldn't have predicted how well he's taken to Test cricket going simply off his performances for Middlesex. Same for Freddie, Vaughan, Harmison, even Trescothick.
All of them had at least 1-2 good seasons for their county before they were selected.
Strauss had 3 consecutive good seasons for Middlesex before his selection in 2004, in each of those seasons he scored over 1000 runs at an average in excess of 45. I dont think there was anyone whoever questioned his selection when it was made, infact everyone was pushing for it.
Freddie and Harmison were certainly not players that seemed at ease in international cricket when they were first selected, both were appalling and it took the 2 of them several years before they actually deserved a place in the side(not surprisingly their domestic performances sky rocketed after that). Vaughan too had been impressive from 98 onwards. Only tresco it could be said did not have a particularly good domestic career before his international success, while players like Cook, Bell, Strauss, Pietersen and even Collingwood provide cases for the contrary.
 

Woodster

International Captain
All of them had at least 1-2 good seasons for their county before they were selected.
Strauss had 3 consecutive good seasons for Middlesex before his selection in 2004, in each of those seasons he scored over 1000 runs at an average in excess of 45. I dont think there was anyone whoever questioned his selection when it was made, infact everyone was pushing for it.
Freddie and Harmison were certainly not players that seemed at ease in international cricket when they were first selected, both were appalling and it took the 2 of them several years before they actually deserved a place in the side(not surprisingly their domestic performances sky rocketed after that). Vaughan too had been impressive from 98 onwards. Only tresco it could be said did not have a particularly good domestic career before his international success, while players like Cook, Bell, Strauss, Pietersen and even Collingwood provide cases for the contrary
Without wanting to drag this discussion on too much, I'm not particularly sure that 1-2 good seasons denotes excellent domestic stats. Freddie and Harmy may not have been at ease immediately but that wasnt my point, not everyone settles immediately, but still their 1st class stats were average.

I never questioned Strauss's selection, I really dont think at the time he was beating the door down. He has a decent domestic average, nothing breath taking, but Fletcher saw something in him and I think its fair to say, since then he has taken his game to another level. Yes, Cook and Pietersen record excellent first class averages, and were selected on that (It always appeared with Cook as though it was a case of when, not if ).

We may have to agree to disagree on this point, the initial innocuous point I made was we had seen Fletcher pluck players from the domestic game where they were not exactly setting it on fire, I think the stats (though they don't always tell the whole story) support my comment. Also Fletcher is renowned in this country for selecting such players, seeing the something in them to make it at the top level, not just what their average says.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Jono said:
Wow, shattering stuff that. Wish Tres all the best, its obviously not "India related" now.
Indeed not.

I think we have to in a way applaud him for doing what he's done now, rather than go into the series when he's not fit to play.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
TT Boy said:
Only problem is it means Collingwood is now guaranteed to play.
Not sure how bad a thing that will be.

One thing we know about Collingwood is that he will sell his wicket dearly, even if he doesn't score too many he'll bat time - and in Test matches, it's nice to have players like that around.
 

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