The CW50 - No.7

[zaremba]

Sean, how many votes did Mynn get, since we're on the subject?

 

[The Sean]

Just the one vote, but it was high enough for equal 61st.

 

[The Sean]

I was actually tempted to give him a vote myself, but in the end stuck to players who had played Test cricket.

 

[bagapath]

As bhupinder explained, it is not illegal to pitch imran as the second greatest cricketer of all time. as far as all time rankings are concerned, only the top position is really locked. imran has ticked every box in terms of skills and has achieved in the game all that is humanly possible. so it is okay to think of him as the best after the don. still, the case for sobers as the next best after bradman is stronger than imran's. grace also has an equally good claim for that spot or as no.3, slightly beind sobers.

I always place them above imran for I believe sobers is probably the only cricketer after bradman to be picked in any all time xi without a second thought. it is impossible to ignore his all round value to any team. there really is no replacement for someone who is a match winning batter at 6 and a very useful bowling option on any pitch. imran at least has miller, botham and hadlee for competion for the bowling all rounder spot. sobers really has none at his position.

grace would always have to be remembered as the father of modern cricket. he added foot work to batting, which was, till then, a very limited performing act like playing classical music on a single stringed guitar. he was one of the early technicians to master both front and back foot play. he inspired all practitioners of the art of batting to be much more versatile in expressing themselves on the cricket pitch. and since he was head shoulders and pot belly above all the rest of the cricketers of his time that there is no doubt in my mind that he would have been a champion in any era.

no.s 4 to 8 should be pretty much interchangable between hobbs, richards, imran, warne and sachin. all were/are awesome cricketers and splitting them would be really really difficult.

 

[zaremba]

Yes hard to disagree with any of that bagapath. In one respect I'd go further than you and say that Grace has a respectable claim to the top spot, above the Don, on the grounds that his dominance over his contemporaries matched or even exceeded Bradman's, and his influence on the game was greater.

 

[bagapath]

Yes hard to disagree with any of that bagapath. In one respect I'd go further than you and say that Grace has a respectable claim to the top spot, above the Don, on the grounds that his dominance over his contemporaries matched or even exceeded Bradman's, and his influence on the game was greater.

again that is a very justifiable thought. but since i feel the difference between 99.94 and the next best in test cricket is the biggest difference in any professional sport between nos. 1 and 2, i think bradman deserves to be placed first.

 

[Goughy]

Do you rate Botham above Imran as a batsman, Goughy?

I do, by a distance, for many reasons. More runs per innings, more runs per game, batting higher up the order, more 100s, the records Botham set, the game changing innings he played, 5 of Imran's 6 tons were in draws when batting first etc. I could go on. As we were saying in the other thread, Botham had 8 Test tons before he was 24.

Towards the end of his career Imran improved his batting no end and in his last 23 Tests he averaged over 58 with the bat. But at this peak he scored during this period on average 53 runs a game. Botham scored 51 runs a game throughout his 100+ game career (including the bad times and not cherry picking)

 

[Avada Kedavra]

No doubt a very great cricketer but not better than Sir Gary Sobers or even Beefy in my opinion. Beefy was more explosive with the bat and overall a better batsman by a bit. Imran was a better bowler but in my opinion that isn't enough to compensate the difference between Imran the batsman and Botham the batsman. Botham was basically a one man army and bowled and batted his backside off for England. His stats are skewed as result of him playing well past his peak. Unlike Beefy,Imran had a lot of support in the form of Qadir, Sarfaraz and Wasim Akram and a better team overall. Botham at his peak was more devastating than any all rounder the game has seen, hands down.

 

[Fusion]

No doubt a very great cricketer but not better than Sir Gary Sobers or even Beefy in my opinion. Beefy was more explosive with the bat and overall a better batsman by a bit. Imran was a better bowler but in my opinion that isn't enough to compensate the difference between Imran the batsman and Botham the batsman. Botham was basically a one man army and bowled and batted his backside off for England. His stats are skewed as result of him playing well past his peak. Unlike Beefy,Imran had a lot of support in the form of Qadir, Sarfaraz and Wasim Akram and a better team overall. Botham at his peak was more devastating than any all rounder the game has seen, hands down.

You have a right to your opinion about Botham being a better overall cricketer (if that’s what you’re in fact stating), but I would strongly disagree. First, I think you can make a legitimate argument that Botham was a better batsman at his peak. If you compare their entire careers though, you can make just as strong a case that Imran was a better batsman. Anyway, the difference there is not that great IMO. However Imran was a FAR greater bowler than Botham. Imran can legitimately be ranked in the top 10 greatest bowlers list; heck I can make a strong case for him to be in the top 5. Botham will struggle to make the top 20. So perhaps Botham > Imran in batting, but Imran >>>>Botham in bowling. As far as this “support” argument that you make, I don’t buy it. When Imran was truly at his peak and Pakistan’s main strike bowler, he hardly had any support from Sarfaraz and Wasim. In fact, during his legendary battles against the WI, he did it almost alone and with magnificent results as I demonstrated here. That’s another notch for Imran, his outstanding performances against the best team of his era. We all know how Botham fared in comparison. Add to the fact that Imran successfully Captained Pakistan to heights they had never achieved before while Botham flopped in that role (for a variety of reasons), and the scales tip even more in Imran’s favor. Sorry, I just don’t see a compeling argument to rank Botham greater than Imran as a cricketer.

 

[JBH001]

Great idea, The Sean. Pity I didnt submit my list.

Good to see Imran at 7 - easily one of the greatest cricketers of all time, and a better cricketer than Botham, although I dont think him top 5.

Btw, lets not turn this into another Imran vs Botham thread. Thats not the point of it.

 

[zaremba]

I do, by a distance, for many reasons. More runs per innings, more runs per game, batting higher up the order, more 100s, the records Botham set, the game changing innings he played, 5 of Imran's 6 tons were in draws when batting first etc. I could go on. As we were saying in the other thread, Botham had 8 Test tons before he was 24.

Towards the end of his career Imran improved his batting no end and in his last 23 Tests he averaged over 58 with the bat. But at this peak he scored during this period on average 53 runs a game. Botham scored 51 runs a game throughout his 100+ game career (including the bad times and not cherry picking)

Fair enough.

 

[silentstriker]

Fair to say a few ladies have felt Imran's presence over the years tbh.

+1.

As for Imran vs. Botham. I do think Imran is an overall better cricketer than Botham, but at his peak, if we only were to look at that, frankly, I'd have him after Bradman.

That's not an exaggeration. For a little while there, he was a walking Cricket God. If I were guaranteed Botham at his prime, I'd pick him in my team right after Bradman. Similar to how Waqar has a shot at being one of the top three bowlers of all time if we only look at his absolute peak.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

+1.

As for Imran vs. Botham. I do think Imran is an overall better cricketer than Botham, but at his peak, if we only were to look at that, frankly, I'd have him after Bradman.

That's not an exaggeration. For a little while there, he was a walking Cricket God. If I were guaranteed Botham at his prime, I'd pick him in my team right after Bradman. Similar to how Waqar has a shot at being one of the top three bowlers of all time if we only look at his absolute peak.

Statistically & Realistically

Imran's peak>Botham's peak

And Imran has a better bowling peak than Waqar too and it lasted more than Wicky's peak did.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

No doubt a very great cricketer but not better than Sir Gary Sobers or even Beefy in my opinion. Beefy was more explosive with the bat and overall a better batsman by a bit. Imran was a better bowler but in my opinion that isn't enough to compensate the difference between Imran the batsman and Botham the batsman. Botham was basically a one man army and bowled and batted his backside off for England. His stats are skewed as result of him playing well past his peak. Unlike Beefy,Imran had a lot of support in the form of Qadir, Sarfaraz and Wasim Akram and a better team overall. Botham at his peak was more devastating than any all rounder the game has seen, hands down.

The most devastating allrounder ever at his peak is Imran Khan.Stats say it,not just my personal opinion.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Another fact about Imran that most of the people don't know that seeing his bowling starting to decline,he had retired in 1988 at the age of 36 but came out of it on the request of Pakistan's President and played till 1992 as a batting allrounder.

 

[andyc]

Didn't know you liked Imran Khan, Bhupinder Singh.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Didn't know you liked Imran Khan, Bhupinder Singh.

Some people on this forum are sick of me praising Imran Khan so much.I hardly praise players,especially Pakistani players but whenever I like and praise any players,he has to be blessed with some special got gifted talent and must have shown unmatchable performances.And my praise has nothing to do with him being a Pakistani.Thats the reason you people see me praising Imran only and not not any other great players from Pakistan including Wasim Akram,Waqar Younis,Fazal Mahmood,Javed Miandad and Inzamam-ul-Haq.And God knows that I have been very honest to say it all in this post.

 

[Uppercut]

I had him at 4, one place ahead of Sobers and only behind Bradman, Grace and McGrath. I think he adds a phenomenal amount of value to any side. Even moreso than Sobers for mine, because part-time batting is much more desirable than part-time bowling.

 

[Matt79]

Sober's bowling was decidedly more than "part-time".

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Sober's bowling was decidedly more than "part-time".

He always bowled regularly but was absoluely useless for 1st 2/5 of his career.Its true that he was a regular bowler but his bowling's benefit to his team for half of his career,if not more,was not more than that of a part-time bowler.