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Streak Sacked As Zimbabwe Captain

Langeveldt

Soutie
Lions81 said:
Zimbabwe is a case where the colonizers thought, "Hey, why don't I just stick around for a bit", and I can't imagine the natives are too fond of that line of thinking, not to put too find a point on it. So you're not gonna hear a peep from India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, or the West Indies on this matter.

Right, so colonials dont have the right to a comfortable life in their countries, because of the way their forefathers dealt with land matters hundreds of years ago...

Oh well, I guess that means 16 million aussies and kiwis, 5 million South Africans, not to mention 200 million Americans better listen to their conscience and get the hell back to Europe!
 

Lions81

U19 Cricketer
Langeveldt said:
Right, so colonials dont have the right to a comfortable life in their countries, because of the way their forefathers dealt with land matters hundreds of years ago...

Oh well, I guess that means 16 million aussies and kiwis, 5 million South Africans, not to mention 200 million Americans better listen to their conscience and get the hell back to Europe!
Okay before I respond, here's my disclaimer: I'm not a racist. I was just playing devil's advocate, and I will continue to do so because all the dialogue on this matter has really been one-sided. And please let's not let emotions get involved. Some of you seem to have been really hurt or made angry by what I wrote earlier. I'm sorry for that, I didn't mean to hurt you.

With that said, here I go:

Well those governments aren't demanding that those people leave. The Zimbabwean government is taking away the whites' farms and basically daring them to leave the country. I applaud their bravery for staying and I'm not in any way condoning what Mugabe has done and continues to do, but Zimbabwe can run their country however they like. I don't think cricket should be in any way linked to foreign policy. I hated it when the Indian government wouldn't let cricket be played with Pakistan while field hockey and everything else was allowed to be played and trade carried on as usual, and I hate it now. Cricket is just a sport, let it remain so! If you don't like what Zimbabwe is doing, write to your government officials, not to your cricket officials!

Comparisons to apartheid are unfair because in South Africa, a small minority of rich, powerful whites were brutally oppressing poor blacks. In Zimbabwe, the whites are still a minority and rich, except they don't have power. Heath Streak's dad owned a farm and lived a very comfortable life which he inherited while the land could be better used to feed thousands of people. Heath Streak's father inherited his land from his father and so on, and where did the first land come from? Stolen from the natives. I'm not a Communist, but why are we in a rush to protect the rights of these snobby aristocrats? The only people who used to be able to play cricket in Zimbabwe were rich whites who had poor blacks to work their farms. (Not slavery per se, but indentured servitude nonetheless.) At least with Mugabe's policy of more black players, poor blacks are able to play this game and he's removed its reputation as a bastion for rich whites who thumb their noses at poor blacks. And Mugabe did offer to buy the farms first. He's still a ****ing ******* but he's done something positive for the game's reputation in the black Zimbabwean community.


And was it just me or did the Zimbabwe team that just took on Bangladesh have quite a few white players? In fact, I do believe that a majority of the players were white. So what is this talk about Mugabe won't allow whites to play? Maybe he didn't like white players and hoped that blacks would eventually push them out, and even went out of his way to accelerate their fall from international cricket-playing, but until the recent events, white players did in fact play, and a white player was the captain. We don't know what demands Streak made to the ZCU, we only know what he told us. Who knows what he went in there and demanded? He may have demanded that his father become head of selectors or that his salary be tripled for all I know.

How can any of us, sitting in our comfortable homes, try to empathize with the situation in Zimbabwe? It is really messed up all-around, and I think it's best if we don't jump to rash conclusions about the whole mess and see how it plays out. Who knows, Streak and all may end up returning to the team shortly, or they may end up moving on to other countries to continue playing. But countries should still tour Zimbabwe. (Only safety issues or a direct ban from the government are satisfactory reasons for me to cancel a tour to Zimbabwe. And of course, being too tired to play is also a good reason! :p )
 

Langeveldt

Soutie
Lions81 said:
I'm not a Communist, but why are we in a rush to protect the rights of these snobby aristocrats? )
I wouldnt call the white zimbabwe cricket team snobby aristocrats.. Ive had the pleasure of meeting one or two, and in my opinion they are just model sportsmen who are trying to make a living under a pretty appaling regime.. Sachin is a wealthy man, living in a country full of poverty, but we dont malign him do we?



Lions81 said:
but he's done something positive for the game's reputation in the black Zimbabwean community.
Most of the black Zimbabwean community are approaching starvation, and im sure the women and children who are wondering where there next bowl of mielipap will come from are also wondering why he shut down guys like Dennis Streak's farm.. Im convinced that the Zimbabwe situation isnt black/white, but Zanu PF against the rest (black/white/pink/asian whatever).. and i wonder how many people look at things from that viewpoint.. I think he has done everything in his power to undermine his cricket team and his country on the world stage, from whatever racial viewpoint you look at it...


Anyway, I appreciate your viewpoint Lions, and apologize for the serious politics here in cricket chat.. but its a problem that ive felt pretty strongly about... anyway if the mods say so i will quit with the politics...
 

Lions81

U19 Cricketer
Langeveldt said:
I wouldnt call the white zimbabwe cricket team snobby aristocrats.. Ive had the pleasure of meeting one or two, and in my opinion they are just model sportsmen who are trying to make a living under a pretty appaling regime.. Sachin is a wealthy man, living in a country full of poverty, but we dont malign him do we?





Most of the black Zimbabwean community are approaching starvation, and im sure the women and children who are wondering where there next bowl of mielipap will come from are also wondering why he shut down guys like Dennis Streak's farm.. Im convinced that the Zimbabwe situation isnt black/white, but Zanu PF against the rest (black/white/pink/asian whatever).. and i wonder how many people look at things from that viewpoint.. I think he has done everything in his power to undermine his cricket team and his country on the world stage, from whatever racial viewpoint you look at it...


Anyway, I appreciate your viewpoint Lions, and apologize for the serious politics here in cricket chat.. but its a problem that ive felt pretty strongly about... anyway if the mods say so i will quit with the politics...
Thank you, and I certainly appreciate and identify with your viewpoint far more than the one I argued for. But I just don't feel that Michael Vaughan is the man we should pinning our hopes for a free Zimbabwe on! Back to the cricket I suppose!
 

Loony BoB

International Captain
Lions81 said:
And was it just me or did the Zimbabwe team that just took on Bangladesh have quite a few white players? In fact, I do believe that a majority of the players were white. So what is this talk about Mugabe won't allow whites to play?
The problem was that Streak believed that the team being selected was not the best team he could have, and he did not have faith in this team. Even Olongo, a black player from Zimbabwe, has stated bluntly that there is no room for white players in Zimbabwe.
Maybe he didn't like white players and hoped that blacks would eventually push them out, and even went out of his way to accelerate their fall from international cricket-playing, but until the recent events, white players did in fact play, and a white player was the captain. We don't know what demands Streak made to the ZCU, we only know what he told us. Who knows what he went in there and demanded? He may have demanded that his father become head of selectors or that his salary be tripled for all I know.
It's pretty clear what he demanded if you read the cricinfo articles - something along the lines of all selecters having to had played first class cricket, not being involved in commentating etc...

No matter what, if the ZCU are not putting out the best team they can put out, then they're not doing their job right. That's my opinion on the matter.
 

Craig

World Traveller
Lions81 said:
Cricket is just a sport, let it remain so! If you don't like what Zimbabwe is doing, write to your government officials, not to your cricket officials!
First rule about Politics: It is all well and good to say politics and sport dont mix, but they do go hand-in-hand.

Lions81 said:
Heath Streak's dad owned a farm and lived a very comfortable life which he inherited while the land could be better used to feed thousands of people. Heath Streak's father inherited his land from his father and so on, and where did the first land come from? Stolen from the natives.
And who is to say it was never brought?

Does this mean I should leave my home and tell the Aborignals and they can have their land back?
 

Lions81

U19 Cricketer
Craig said:
First rule about Politics: It is all well and good to say politics and sport dont mix, but they do go hand-in-hand.



And who is to say it was never brought?

Does this mean I should leave my home and tell the Aborignals and they can have their land back?
No, the Aboriginals don't have the power to quite make you do that. If you lived in Zimbabwe, it'd be a different story, because they do have the power to make the white farmers there do what they want. And why do politics and sports go hand-in-hand?
 

Craig

World Traveller
Lions81 said:
No, the Aboriginals don't have the power to quite make you do that. If you lived in Zimbabwe, it'd be a different story, because they do have the power to make the white farmers there do what they want. And why do politics and sports go hand-in-hand?
Well there have been plenty of examples in cricket: Indian Government banning India playing Pakistan until now; English and Australian Governments expressed their disapproval in their teams going to Zimbabwe; Think back to what happened with South African all-rounder Basil D'Olivera immergrating to England and as a result South Africa ended up being banned for 22 odd years; Justin Ontong getting picked ahead of Jacques Rudolph; Garry Sobers going to Rhodesia in the early 70s and creating a uproar in India, several Indian nations and in the Carribean with workers unions and other islands demanding he resign as captain because he had a meeting with Ian Smith and said he was a good person to talk to (Eddie should remember this) and plenty more examples.

Also others being FIFA (Sepp Blatter has got no idea IMO) and the US Government demanding countries to boycott the 1980 Moscow Olympics, because of the Soviet Unions invasion of Afganistan.
 

Lions81

U19 Cricketer
Craig said:
Well there have been plenty of examples in cricket: Indian Government banning India playing Pakistan until now; English and Australian Governments expressed their disapproval in their teams going to Zimbabwe; Think back to what happened with South African all-rounder Basil D'Olivera immergrating to England and as a result South Africa ended up being banned for 22 odd years; Justin Ontong getting picked ahead of Jacques Rudolph; Garry Sobers going to Rhodesia in the early 70s and creating a uproar in India, several Indian nations and in the Carribean with workers unions and other islands demanding he resign as captain because he had a meeting with Ian Smith and said he was a good person to talk to (Eddie should remember this) and plenty more examples.

Also others being FIFA (Sepp Blatter has got no idea IMO) and the US Government demanding countries to boycott the 1980 Moscow Olympics, because of the Soviet Unions invasion of Afganistan.
I think I was unclear. I'm not denying that they are linked, I was asking why they should be linked. I'm arguing that there should be no link at all, and maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought you were saying they are inherently intertwined?
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Craig said:
Think back to what happened with South African all-rounder Basil D'Olivera immergrating to England and as a result South Africa ended up being banned for 22 odd years
I get your point, but a bit of an overgeneralisation there!
 

Neil Pickup

Cricket Web Moderator
Lions81 said:
I think I was unclear. I'm not denying that they are linked, I was asking why they should be linked. I'm arguing that there should be no link at all, and maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought you were saying they are inherently intertwined?
In an ideal world, obviously they should not be linked, however sport has played a huge role for hundreds of years in national consciousnesses. I'm not going to go into this deeply, but a prime example of this was in the former Communist bloc countries of Eastern Europe where the sports teams (insert East German swimmers joke here) were funded to a huge level by the government simply because it was a huge boost to national morale to see this success [so it begs the question, why the :censored: are New Labour still allowing such a sell-off of playing fields?!

As for Zimbabwe, I think I'm probably as close to the extreme left of the political spectrum as you'll get on CW - and I agree with the Southern African ideas of land redistribution, as the third world was screwed over by settlers for many decades. However Mugabe has lost the plot and is power-crazed, deranged and unstable. He's unable to accept any opposition to his views (viz the persecution of independent media, and the leader of the opposition MDC, Morgan Tsvangirai [black]) - it's just that whites are generally his opponents that the race card is played. And yes, there were limits of the number of whites who could play Tests at once (8 max) - that's why Mahwire, Nicolle, Maregwede, Matsikenyeri et al have played/been in the squads so often.

The politics of socialism/communism/libertarianism shouldn't come into this - it's simply a case of human rights abuses and freedoms - there is no way that Zimbabwe should have any part in the International community until things change [blanket statement - but you get the idea]. Then you get the whole new kettle of fish when China/Tibet/Taiwan comes into the picture.

Ah, International Relations... :rolleyes:
 

PY

International Coach
Lions81 said:
In Zimbabwe, the whites are still a minority and rich, except they don't have power. Heath Streak's dad owned a farm and lived a very comfortable life which he inherited while the land could be better used to feed thousands of people.
I have done an awful lot of research into this since it all exploded and land re-distribution began, the farms in Zimbabwe provided 1/3 of the wheat for the whole of Africa at one point and since then the farms have been lying dormant and unused.

Now, I agree that these farms may have been used to create a huge inequality BUT they have also been used to feed an awful lot of people and now they aren't.

I have respect for you for playing Devil's advocate as it is a topic which a lot of people feel strongly about including myself. As long as you don't believe what you are writing. ;)
 

Dingo

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
IMHO, it appears as though Mugabe is simply getting even for what the British-run government did to him in the mid-1960's (Mugabe IIRC spent 10 years in jail for treason). For Mugabe, it's a case of punish anyone who is against him in any way, consequences be damned. And right now, the ZCU is a way in which he can punish those who are against him, mainly the white cricketers from wealthy backgrounds.

AFAICS, the only white cricketer right now with even a glimmer of a chance of playing for Zimbabwe right now, after taking out Streak, the 13 who released a statement recently, plus those who have retired including Flower A, Murphy, Marillier etc., is Gavin Ewing...
 

Lions81

U19 Cricketer
Neil Pickup said:
And yes, there were limits of the number of whites who could play Tests at once (8 max) - that's why Mahwire, Nicolle, Maregwede, Matsikenyeri et al have played/been in the squads so often.



Ah, International Relations... :rolleyes:

8 out of 11 is still completely disproportional to the number of whites versus blacks in the country. In America, that would be the statistical basis for a quick and easy victory in a discrimination lawsuit. Ah yes, International Relations are so annoying. It's easy to kick Zimbabwe out because they have no power and provides nothing to the outside world really, but China's got a huge army and makes a lot of toys which go in happy meals, so they're a bit tougher to deal with.

And PY, I don't believe most of what I'm writing, except that I do firmly believe cricket should carry on regardless of the political situation, unless it becomes dangerous for the players.
 

hourn

U19 Cricketer
Dingo,

have the 13 'rebel's' been reinstated or are they still classed as sacked/fired??

As far as i can tell they wouldn't still be sacked as the ZCU would really have no point in bowing to what they wanted.

But in any case, Zimbabwe Cricket is going down the gurgler at an alarming rate. If they continue on with the threat to sack the 13 guys than i reckon they won't be playing international cricket within 3 years.

If they reinstate them than there is a possible chance Zimbabwe will get through this period, but still quite a slim chance.

Henry Olonga said there are just no opportunities for white cricketers in Zimbabwe, but i'd take that a step further and say theres just no opportunities for white people in zimbabwe full stop.
 

hourn

U19 Cricketer
Lions81 said:
8 out of 11 is still completely disproportional to the number of whites versus blacks in the country.

Irrelevant. it should be the best 11 picked for the Zimbabwe team regardless of colour. unfortunately due to political strains this isn't happening, and it was the first step on the road to possibly killing Zimbabwe cricket.
 

Neil Pickup

Cricket Web Moderator
Lions81 said:
8 out of 11 is still completely disproportional to the number of whites versus blacks in the country.
And more than one player picked from the Mumbai side is disproportial to the number of Mumbai players in the country. What about Orissa, Tripura, Himachal Pradesh...

Also, there's not enough women. Or children [despite Pakistan's efforts]. Or over-60s playing international cricket... :P

International sides should get picked on ability. Period.
 

Lions81

U19 Cricketer
Neil Pickup said:
And more than one player picked from the Mumbai side is disproportial to the number of Mumbai players in the country. What about Orissa, Tripura, Himachal Pradesh...

Also, there's not enough women. Or children [despite Pakistan's efforts]. Or over-60s playing international cricket... :P

International sides should get picked on ability. Period.
Yes, of course. But statistically speaking, of a generally similar pool of talent (eliminating children, women, and the elderly), with the assumption that talent is normally distributed, then the players selected should also be evenly distributed as well.

The reason there are so many Mumbai-area players has to do with bias towards that area as the financial and cultural capital of India, and of the tendency for higher-quality players to gravitate towards Mumbai for the belief that it will improve their chances of being picked or improve their ascent to the top, see Munaf Patel in this regard. Maharashtra also has a very high population with generally more money than the rest of India.

It also speaks to the uneven distribution of wealth, as in the case of Zimbabwe or South Africa, wealth is with the white players and not the black ones, and this wealth leads to better nutrition, physical conditioning, coaching, training and equipment, as well as to an earlier introduction to the game. So this simple statistical analysis just hints at the unfairness of South Africa or Zimbabwe being represented by 8, 9 or 10 white players. It means black players aren't getting a fair shake. Or else it would be the opposite. Unless you're going to argue that whites are genetically better than blacks at cricket, which I know you're not and no one will. So in a population of one million, 900,000 black, 100,000 white, if everyone gets the same opportunities to play, shouldn't 9 out of every 10 cricketers be black? Just a thought.
 

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