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Streak Sacked As Zimbabwe Captain

bennyr

U19 12th Man
Neil Pickup said:
Also, there's not enough women. Or children [despite Pakistan's efforts]. Or over-60s playing international cricket... :P

International sides should get picked on ability. Period.
I agree with your sentiment, Neil, but I reckon blanket statements like this are generally dangerous.

As abominable as you and I might think it, and philisophically moving the argument away from the disgrace that is Zimbabwean cricket, if preference is given to a player from a section of the community that is not as well represented in a national team as it should be whilst ensuring that such players are not out of their depth, this should theoretically help cricket to promote it's image within that section of the community.

That said, we have seen a precession of cricketers in both the Zimbabwean and South African sides that were hopelessly out of their depths, and once the policy is executed it swiftly gets out of hand, and in the case of Zimbabwe, devalues the status of Test and ODI crcket.

There are other reasons why the most able side is not selected. Many sides choose to drop older players in favour of less able youngsters with much potential. Is this wrong? Again, I see a case for it. Within reason.
 

Langeveldt

Soutie
Lions81 said:
So in a population of one million, 900,000 black, 100,000 white, if everyone gets the same opportunities to play, shouldn't 9 out of every 10 cricketers be black? Just a thought.

But in Southern Africa, Cricket isnt seen as a black guys sport.. Your typical township dweller still dreams of being the next great boxer or soccer player.. Give him the oppertunity to play cricket, and he might take it, but the chances are he will take soccer over cricket or rugby.. Theres nothing wrong with this at all, his role models play soccer, and there is no discrimination in place stopping him playing cricket any more...

The fact is that the cricket playing populous of both countries do not represent the ethnic makeup of the population.. So why should they be made so? Especially if the black population are keen to be footballers and boxers anyway.. Why the problem?
 

Adamc

Cricketer Of The Year
Zimbabwe have named a team of some description for the first ODI against Sri Lanka:

Zimbabwe squad for first ODI
Tatenda Taibu (capt and wk), Dion Ebrahim, Vusimuzi Sibanda, Elton Chigumbura, Stuart Matsikenyeri, Alester Maregwede, Mluleki Nkala, Waddington Mwayenga, Brendon Taylor, Douglas Hondo, Prosper Utseya, Tawanda Mpariwa, Edward Rainsford, Tinashe Panyangara.

6 uncapped players, obviously none of the 13 'rebel' players were included. They have been told to turn up to training to remain in contention for future selection, otherwise "action will be taken against them in terms of their contract", i.e. they will be sacked i guess.
I don't see how the above team will come anywhere near being competitive.
 

PY

International Coach
Odds on first ODI double century from Jayasuriya?

Not nearly as long as they should be against Zimbabwe.
 

luckyeddie

Cricket Web Staff Member
PY said:
Odds on first ODI double century from Jayasuriya?

Not nearly as long as they should be against Zimbabwe.
I'd rate the chances of that very high indeed.

It's alleged (on the news tonight) that the supposed caving in to the 'rebels' has not taken place - and that no-one had even spoken to Pommie Mbangwa.
 

Langeveldt

Soutie
luckyeddie said:
I'd rate the chances of that very high indeed.

It's alleged (on the news tonight) that the supposed caving in to the 'rebels' has not taken place - and that no-one had even spoken to Pommie Mbangwa.

Odd, I thought there were glimpses of some sanity with Mbangwa being chosen for the selection panel....

I wonder what Edward Rainsford and Brendon Taylor feel about all this?
 

Neil Pickup

Cricket Web Moderator
Lions81 said:
Yes, of course. But statistically speaking, of a generally similar pool of talent (eliminating children, women, and the elderly), with the assumption that talent is normally distributed, then the players selected should also be evenly distributed as well.

The reason there are so many Mumbai-area players has to do with bias towards that area as the financial and cultural capital of India, and of the tendency for higher-quality players to gravitate towards Mumbai for the belief that it will improve their chances of being picked or improve their ascent to the top, see Munaf Patel in this regard. Maharashtra also has a very high population with generally more money than the rest of India.

It also speaks to the uneven distribution of wealth, as in the case of Zimbabwe or South Africa, wealth is with the white players and not the black ones, and this wealth leads to better nutrition, physical conditioning, coaching, training and equipment, as well as to an earlier introduction to the game. So this simple statistical analysis just hints at the unfairness of South Africa or Zimbabwe being represented by 8, 9 or 10 white players. It means black players aren't getting a fair shake. Or else it would be the opposite. Unless you're going to argue that whites are genetically better than blacks at cricket, which I know you're not and no one will. So in a population of one million, 900,000 black, 100,000 white, if everyone gets the same opportunities to play, shouldn't 9 out of every 10 cricketers be black? Just a thought.
The simple statistics also scream inequity when you look at the class background of selection in the UK. There is an incredible bias towards public schoolboys - nobody is calling for quotas for state-educated kids. Cricket as a sport has been established in the white psyche for hundreds of years, and it has only been "introduced" to the indigenous population in the last thirty.

The case is very, very similar in Kenya, except the players are of Asian rather than white descent (so nobody notices). The fact remains, black players are coming through the ranks. Players like Taibu (who I rate as close-on best keeper in the world, and is my second-favourite player in the world after Harmy), Masakadza, Olonga and the late Trevor Madondo were making it through the ranks [see guys like Ntini in SA and van Rooi in Namibia] and given time, a Zimbabwe side will contain a more representative black/white balance.

Look at football in the UK, for example, I hardly think there's a genetic bias here [unlike there can be argued with sprinting], and the representation of blacks in the professional game is much more equitable after years of under-representation followed by the gradual infusion into the culture - it hasn't happened yet to the Asian "community", however once it produces a really good player (no, Harpal Singh doesn't count) I expect the realignment to occur.

Oh yeah, another thing - off that logic, those of Asian descent are over-represented in the England sides. The U19 side had an all-Asian slip cordon last summer (Patel/Shafayat/Bopara) - that proves absolutely nothing. There's never going to be equity in class or race distribution unless all "communities" have precisely involvements and habits.

Benny - I agree with you about the idea of boosted confidence in ethnic groups to see "their" players perform well, which is why I feel that Quotas have a place in Domestic cricket in that kind of situation, however when it comes to representative International level, I don't think it has a place.

As for that "squad", it's an utter disgrace. No disrespect to the players involved, but it is utterly appalling to see a side like that playing International cricket. Last time they toured Sri Lanka, Vaas took 8-19 and skittled them for 38. What price a repeat, with a side short of any proper batsmen (or bowlers, for that matter)? Anyway, where's Blessing Mahwire?!

ICC, get a spine, and ban them for playing politics with the game. Take a leaf out of FIFA's book - they banned Bangladesh and threatened Azerbaijan with the same action when the government got involved with the football teams, only relenting when the previous status quo was restored.
 

Lions81

U19 Cricketer
Langeveldt said:
there is no discrimination in place stopping him playing cricket any more...

QUOTE]

There may not be overt discrimination, but surely there remains discrimination nevertheless. One need only look at the U.S. after the Civil War. Even a hundred years later, blacks in the South still couldn't use the same bathroom. But in South Africa, a mere twenty years later, blacks and whites have all the equal opportunities? Isn't it a fact that most cricketers who play internationally for South Africa attended private wealthy high school with high tuitions? I'm sure not many blacks made it into those schools.
 

Langeveldt

Soutie
Lions81 said:
Langeveldt said:
there is no discrimination in place stopping him playing cricket any more...

Isn't it a fact that most cricketers who play internationally for South Africa attended private wealthy high school with high tuitions? I'm sure not many blacks made it into those schools.

Yeah, because most of these players grew up in the tailend of apartheid... Its still the norm for most whites to go to Afrikaans/private schools, but what I meant is there are no racial barriers stopping black people from playing cricket any more (there used to be).... What I was saying is the reason behind continued white domination in the sport is simply through choice.. And black preference towards other sports like soccer...

I feel in the last few series we have been seing a pure merit side being fielded.. (Robbie peterson the only bugbear, and he is gone now) There are role models such as Makhaya Ntini, Monde Zondeki, Mfuneko Ngam and Herschelle Gibbs that are very classy cricketers too.. This only has to be good for the game..
 

hourn

U19 Cricketer
Lions81 said:
Isn't it a fact that most cricketers who play internationally for South Africa attended private wealthy high school with high tuitions? I'm sure not many blacks made it into those schools.
so why does that mean more black people should be in the national cricket team??

just because they may have not got the opportunities as youngsters doesn't mean they get special privelages when they're older.......

I'm trying to not sound racist here (and i know it's not coming across to well here, but it is hard) but the national team should be based on who the best 11 cricketers are.

Unfortunately the way life is around the place some people get more opportunities as kids than others. That's just life.
 

Lions81

U19 Cricketer
hourn said:
so why does that mean more black people should be in the national cricket team??

just because they may have not got the opportunities as youngsters doesn't mean they get special privelages when they're older.......

I'm trying to not sound racist here (and i know it's not coming across to well here, but it is hard) but the national team should be based on who the best 11 cricketers are.

Unfortunately the way life is around the place some people get more opportunities as kids than others. That's just life.
No, I don't think you're being racist at all. This is just a difficult, nuanced discussion and I think everyone should be able to speak freely and reasonably, as everyone has so far, without fear of being labeled a racist.

Yes, we both agree that some people get more opportunities as kids than others, disproportionately whites more so than blacks. The critical questions to consider are, 1. Is this fair? and 2. If not, how can this inequity be remedied?

The answer to #1 for me is an emphatic no. The answer to #2 is a lot harder. I think one method which must be used is scholarships to take poor children who show promise or strong interest in cricket to these wealthy private schools where they can be well-educated and well-coached in cricket. The reason that most want to become soccer players as Langeveldt said is because all you need is a ball. Cricket, especially at the higher levels, is far more complicated than that.

But what will make blacks consider cricket a viable outlet for sports in the face of decades of repression and the reputation, unfair or not, that cricket is a white man's game? They must have role models to look up to. Pele rejuvenated soccer for a whole generation of Latin Americans and Africans who saw in this megastar someone who spoke their language and had a similar skin color. I can't imagine that a youth living in the ghettoes of Soweto, South Africa or Bulawayo, Zimbabwe can look up to Graeme Smith or Heath Streak as much as they can to Makhaya Ntini or Tatenda Taibu. For that reason alone, I think there must be some sort of quota system in place. To reverse one of the most heinous social engineering experiments in the history of mankind, we must take large and daring measures.
 

bennyr

U19 12th Man
Lions81 said:
But what will make blacks consider cricket a viable outlet for sports in the face of decades of repression and the reputation, unfair or not, that cricket is a white man's game? They must have role models to look up to. Pele rejuvenated soccer for a whole generation of Latin Americans and Africans who saw in this megastar someone who spoke their language and had a similar skin color. I can't imagine that a youth living in the ghettoes of Soweto, South Africa or Bulawayo, Zimbabwe can look up to Graeme Smith or Heath Streak as much as they can to Makhaya Ntini or Tatenda Taibu. For that reason alone, I think there must be some sort of quota system in place. To reverse one of the most heinous social engineering experiments in the history of mankind, we must take large and daring measures.
As I have previously posted, I agree with this sentiment - it is good for the game to produce role models.

I have a problem with a quota system. Any rigid selection policy in this regard will inevitably lead to players who are hopelessy out of their depth being selected at times, which is not good for the game because:

a) They become negative role models if they consistently fail.
b) Selection of players that are substantially inferior to others that are available will inevitably lead to discontent within the squad.

I beleive that the only way of successfully implementing such a policy is to leave it to the discretion of selectors making sure that selectors are supportive of the policy.

National selectors to varying degrees are already sacrificing the ability of the sides they are selecting now for the good of their national squad in the future when they blood new players by dropping older players who are (in most cases) not going to be around for the next World Cup.

I appreciate that this is a different issue, but it has one important similarity - the likelihood of winning the next game is decreased in oreder that the likelihood of winning many more games in the future is increased.
 

hourn

U19 Cricketer
the old adage of sport and politics not mixing has never been more true in this case.

i know it's unfair that black kids don't get near the opportunities as white kids do in Zimbabwe and South Africa, but it is not upto the ZCU or SCA (whatever its called) to try and fix it up.

It's the governments responsibility to change things. In South Africa things seem (admittedly i'm no expert on this situation) to be going in the right direction. Or at the very least they don't seem to be going in the wrong direction........

Unforuantely in Zimbabwe the government is now run by an absolute lunatic who is determined on making up for past wrongs through more wrongs. He doesn't seem to realize two wrongs don't often make a right.

Although hard, the ICC needed to get some balls for once, take charge of the ZCU and distance the ZCU from the government.

It easier said than done, and possibly could've got very messy. But it couldn't have been much messier than the current situation. And at least that mess could've been cleaned up - this mess is snowballing and getting out of control.

Also If the best 11 cricketers from Zimbabwe are picked, there are black people in there. And there would be a few on the outskirts as well. These guys could all handle themselves at the top level, but now the black guys coming in are just not gonna be able to handle themselves, and as someone above said they can become negative role models. There is no doubting that Zimbabwe, whilst fielding teams of the standard there about to field for the Sri Lankan one day series, will get flogged like no international team ever has.

It shouldn't be upto the ZCU to make up for the wrongs of the government. Unfortunately the ZCU now seems to be pretty much controlled by the government, and it seems to late to do anything about it
 

Craig

World Traveller
Lions81 said:
Isn't it a fact that most cricketers who play internationally for South Africa attended private wealthy high school with high tuitions? I'm sure not many blacks made it into those schools.
So what?

So what if a cricketer (white) went to a private school and went onto play international cricket?

But isnt that a white cricketer went to a private school because his parents worked hard and/or saved like crazy and sacrific to send their children to school? And a cricketer (white) is playing top level cricket because he trained and practised a lot?

Lance Klusener is the odd-ball of it all. He went to a public school, didnt take cricket up until he was 15 or 16.
 

Langeveldt

Soutie
Its just the same in England, where most of the professional cricketers went to good sporting (private) colleges.. But because there isnt the colour differece, it doesnt get noticed as much...

Last week I played at one of the finest sports institutions in the country.. You could have made a recent county XI from the honours board in the Pav.. yet there werent many more people at the college than at your run of the mill government school..
 

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