Shane Warne - the myth

[TheJediBrah]

Surprised no one's brought up Warne's often-expressed dislike of Indian food as an excuse for his performances. I seem to recall tales that he would bring a suitcase full of canned baked beans on tour so he wouldn't have to rely on the local cuisine.

 

[the big bambino]

You just need to take a look at Grimmett and O'Reilly's records against England and South Africa to get an idea of the relative standard of the batting lineup of those two countries during O'Reilly's era.

Grimmett vs England 106 wickets @ 32.44
Grimmett vs South Africa 77 wickets @ 15.57

O'Reilly vs England 102 wickets @ 25.36
O'Reilly vs South Africa 34 wickets @ 18.64

Combined vs England 208 wickets @ 28.97
Combined vs South Africa 111 wickets @ 16.51

So yes, playing against South Africa certainly did allow O'Reilly to "pad his stats against hack sides" - at least relatively speaking.

Yes I know; thanks. Regurgitation of facts doesn't actually make an argument though. It doesn't follow that because they did well against SA then that side must have been hacks. They dominated a side that twice beat England. Hack sides aren't capable of that. It may well be that being top quality leggies helped them as that seems to be the type of bowler the Saffers particularly dread. But any team that can field Mitchell, Taylor, Rowan and Nourse in that decade (also Melville and Catterall - though neither played Aus), along with support like Dalton, Seidle, Christy and Cameron is pretty strong. Whereas current sides like Pakistan, WI and to an extent England would be closer to the definition of hacks. The first two probably an accurate example.

 

[stephen]

Probably a fair point. Anyway as a Queenslander what did you make of Paul Jackson?

Thought he looked alright myself, not a superstar but more than handy with his left arm slow offerings

I honestly never saw to much of him. In fact given my love for Peter Taylor I'm actually a bit sad I didn't really watch Jackson closely. My heroes at the time were Border, Hayden, Barsby, Seccombe, Love, Law, Bichel, Rackemann and Kasprowicz.

 

[TheJediBrah]

How good was Queensland's late 90s/early-00s pace battery though. Kept finding guns out fo nowhere

 

[GoodAreasShane]

I honestly never saw to much of him. In fact given my love for Peter Taylor I'm actually a bit sad I didn't really watch Jackson closely. My heroes at the time were Border, Hayden, Barsby, Seccombe, Love, Law, Bichel, Rackemann and Kasprowicz.

Ahh Peter Taylor, he could certainly bowl. Very handy ODI record indeed, but he has finished up before the real golden years for Queensland.

Very good list of names there, Queensland were genuinely an excellent team during that era

 

[Migara]

I disagree. Warne was the kind of bloke who ready needed a challenge to get the blood pumping. The bigger the stage the more he seemed to like it and the better he played. I think his intensity was lower in first class cricket and he experimented a bit more (he occasionally was known to bowl a bouncer in first class matches).

In a first class match I think Murali would be a much better draft pick than Warne. But at the top level in the highest pressure situations I'd back Warne to pull out something special.

This is one of the urban myths going around, that Murali bamboozled while Warne set them up. Watching Murali closely shows his changes of pace and trajectory to set batsmen up. Especially for the lbw. And yes, Murali never benefitted from rough, and as a result has bowled less ridiculous spinners than Warne. Every **** - a-hoop delivery Murali bowled was just off the pitch, nothing off the rough.

 

[stephen]

This is one of the urban myths going around, that Murali bamboozled while Warne set them up. Watching Murali closely shows his changes of pace and trajectory to set batsmen up. Especially for the lbw. And yes, Murali never benefitted from rough, and as a result has bowled less ridiculous spinners than Warne. Every **** - a-hoop delivery Murali bowled was just off the pitch, nothing off the rough.

Didn't Vaas bowl at three other end for Murali? Wouldn't he have generated some rough, given he was a left hander?

And my point was that Murali had a competitive streak that meant he always bowled at full intensity regardless of circumstances. Warne had more gears and only seemed to lift to his very best on the bigger occasions.

You don't get 800 wickets at 22 without learning how to set a batsman up.

 

[TheJediBrah]

here we go

Warne v Murali, version 1006.5

thanks Migara

 

[Migara]

Didn't Vaas bowl at three other end for Murali? Wouldn't he have generated some rough, given he was a left hander?

And my point was that Murali had a competitive streak that meant he always bowled at full intensity regardless of circumstances. Warne had more gears and only seemed to lift to his very best on the bigger occasions.

You don't get 800 wickets at 22 without learning how to set a batsman up.

Vaas was 5'9" and just about 65kg. I'd be amazed if he could create meaningful rough. Nuwan Zoysa is definite yes.

 

[Flem274*]

put a few ****s through an end for a couple of days and there's gonna be rough

 

[Migara]

put a few ****s through an end for a couple of days and there's gonna be rough

Ok. That kinda gross

 

[ankitj]

Warne sucked against India and he would have sucked in any circumstances any time. There can't be any escape from this. Stephen has been hiding behind the excuse that Warne was never fit or in best form when playing India in tests. One should not accept such a weak excuse but even if you do, what explains his terrible record against India in limited overs then? He had a dream world cup in 1999 you'd say but even then when he played India, Ajay Jadeja and Robin Singh smashed him around at almost 8 rpo after the top order was cleaned up by McGrath.

Murali was also smashed by India on occasions but several times he came on top winning MoMs in both forms of the game against India. Extrapolating from that it's really not such an unreasonable view that in an ATG contest where he will bowl to batsmen at least as good at playing spin and likely better than Indians of 90s and 00s, Warne will likely come up short; Murali gives you a chance.

Learn to except that as a well reasoned point of view even if you disagree just like Indian fans on this board accept that rating Lara over Tendulkar is a perfectly reasonable position. Failure to do so shows you for a blue eyed fanboy and nothing else.

 

[TheJediBrah]

At least Warne didn't hide from India like Murali hid from Australia where he averaged over 70 with the ball

 

[GotSpin]

That's it guys. If you don't do well against India then why bother

 

[stephen]

Warne sucked against India and he would have sucked in any circumstances any time. There can't be any escape from this. Stephen has been hiding behind the excuse that Warne was never fit or in best form when playing India in tests. One should not accept such a weak excuse but even if you do, what explains his terrible record against India in limited overs then? He had a dream world cup in 1999 you'd say but even then when he played India, Ajay Jadeja and Robin Singh smashed him around at almost 8 rpo after the top order was cleaned up by McGrath.

Murali was also smashed by India on occasions but several times he came on top winning MoMs in both forms of the game against India. Extrapolating from that it's really not such an unreasonable view that in an ATG contest where he will bowl to batsmen at least as good at playing spin and likely better than Indians of 90s and 00s, Warne will likely come up short; Murali gives you a chance.

Learn to except that as a well reasoned point of view even if you disagree just like Indian fans on this board accept that rating Lara over Tendulkar is a perfectly reasonable position. Failure to do so shows you for a blue eyed fanboy and nothing else.

Ok.

You do realise I've not actually argued anything in this thread don't you?

 

[mr_mister]

Vaas was 5'9" and just about 65kg. I'd be amazed if he could create meaningful rough. Nuwan Zoysa is definite yes.

Vaas couldnt create rough because he was a beta manlet. good to know

but seriously 65kg(i doubt he was that light he was an athlete so probably lifted weights but i digress) is still a lot of weight to be running over the same patch of turf for hours on end. i dont think the 95kg McGrath magically produced copious amounts more of rough

 

[Migara]

Warne is not a myth. He is an ATG spin bowler in test, and slight holes here and there in the stats should not disqualify from him being ATG. Heck, guys like Lillie had gaping holes in their records and still considered ATG.

However Warne in ODIs is a myth. Much inferior than Murali and Saqlain. Even Jumble and Qadir also could be added

 

[stephen]

Vaas couldnt create rough because he was a beta manlet. good to know

but seriously 65kg(i doubt he was that light he was an athlete so probably lifted weights but i digress) is still a lot of weight to be running over the same patch of turf for hours on end. i dont think the 85kg McGrath magically produced copious amounts more of rough

It's a really weird thing to bring up too. If Vaas didn't generate rough then maybe he should have worn better spikes.

 

[mr_mister]

@ Miagara: MOM in 3 of the 4 WC semi finals/finals he played in though. that's super impressive and definitely adds to his big match/moment player theory

 

[GoodAreasShane]

Vaas couldnt create rough because he was a beta manlet. good to know

but seriously 65kg(i doubt he was that light he was an athlete so probably lifted weights but i digress) is still a lot of weight to be running over the same patch of turf for hours on end. i dont think the 95kg McGrath magically produced copious amounts more of rough

When exactly did TJB hack your account?