***Official*** West Indies in New Zealand 2013/14

[hendrix]

Prettier than Wagner's pre day 5 figures.

 

[kyear2]

We do have some batsmen coming through aswell like Jermain Blackwood who looks fantastic!!..Kyle Hope is also a prospect along with young Chanderpaul etc but it's a matter of these yutes getting in the middle and learning how to build a long innings..the HPC is meant to be working on them so we'll see.

The next in line right now are Carter, Leon Johnson and Fudadin..all have impressed with the A-team recently.

Is Carter that young though and until he can consistently make 100's in FC cricket, don't see how he can in Tests, not that excited about Fudadin or Johnson tbh. Hope and Chanderpaul, we will see how they develop.

The HPC though is doing some good work and something that if we had 15 hears ago we wouldn't be in the position we are in today.

 

[Kippax]

Phlegm's Coney and Turner thing from yesterday I think -
http://arntrnassets.mediaspanonline.com/radio/s01/1110230/A1158_20131207043622913_0.mp3

I can't listen to it on these gouging holiday internet rates.

 

[kyear2]

Agreed, even though the fast bowling lineup selected for this tour must have fans from other parts of the World scratching their heads think what on earth we're on about...... It's so frustrating!

Anyway, I totally agree that pace and middle order batting has been our thing. It just so happens that the state of pitches in the Caribbean means we're now producing some serious spin talent rather than a conveyor belt of pacers.

What I think would make an enormous difference to our team would be a top quality wicket keeper batsman. Someone who can average 40, score relatively quickly and bridge the gap between the lower order and our strong middle order. A Haddin or a Prior basically. We haven't really had that since Dujon IMHO (as much as I loved Ridley!).

Shane Dowrich is really neat behind the stumps, don't know if he will be a 40+ guy in front of the stumps. Johnson Charles keeping is improving and batting at 7 in tests is a bit easier than opening in a odi. His keeping will still need to improve futher.

 

[NZTailender]

Look I agree. But Gillespie has done nothing to shout down the roof. Ideally Bennett would be there, but he's not even in the picture.

And I think when you're playing 5 bowlers - yes, I think Anderson is a viable bowling option - there's justification for including a bowling allrounder as the third seamer. We did it with Cairns, for example. Flintoff would've also been a good example except England erroneously batted him in the top 6. Especially with Williamson bowling, there's a greater share of the 3rd seamer's responsibility.

We have to face up to the fact that noone near the national setup is a particularly penetrative bowler.

I don't know why we're shying away from Wagner, based on one test. He was our best in Bangladesh and doesn't deserve to be dropped unless he has a mare in the remaining Tests. Thing about Cairns was he was a legit top 3 seamer in the country, often our best. Neesham is currently no Cairns - who really was the truest all-rounder since he could've been picked as top 6 batsman or top 3 bowler alone. As good as Neesham is getting, he's not in either of those two categories right now IMO. Whereas Anderson is arguably good enough to be picked on batting alone.

would you give wagner another go? do you think we might benefit from having some fresh legs instead?

I'd be tempted to rest him, based on fitness and not performance. I think he's been written off too quickly because of this Test. It's not panic stations yet.

The issue is all our blokes in the Southee/Boult mode have been going great guns for a while now whereas our hit the deck blokes like Gillespie/Butler/Bennett etc have either fallen off the wagon or injured themselves. We've tried to manufacture swing bowlers like Bracewell and Wagner into archetypical third seamers but the powers that be are finding out the hard way it isn't an overnight process. I'm a big fan of Milne being the third quick because he merges pace and bounce with swing both ways (though I haven't seen him bowl the outswinger in a while so maybe he shelved it). I know he isn't the finished article yet but he is one of the best options. Bartlett also should be in the reckoning because he hits the deck with good bounce, has performed reasonably well though his WPM could be higher, and has stayed fit.

Thing is Bennett, Milne, Bracewell and even McClenaghan have some fair years ahead of them. They're not quite at a level similar to Southee or Boult, and are a year or two away from getting to that level, though to get there they will need some Test time to mature in the same way Boult and Southee have. At the same time those two are still not a finished product so to have 3 young quicks without an experienced seamer might see us behind the eight ball more than being in control. I think Wagner has the experience and skill to be there when Boult and Southee aren't getting it quite right, the kind of way he did in Bangladesh, but also able to be a strike bowler. Bracewell, Bennett and Milne aren't capable of providing that kind of contribution at this time IMO. McClenaghan being a bit older and having some limited overs success, I'd be actually keen to see how he handles the red ball at Test level, even if his FC average is 39...

I would view the seamers list as

1) Southee, Boult
2) Wagner
3) Milne, McClenaghan, Bennett
4) Bracewell, Gillespie
5) Wheeler, Henry, McKay, Arnel, Bates
6) Kuggeleijn, Baker, van Beek

 

[Mike5181]

1. Southee, Boult
2. Wagner
3. Milne, Henry, Wheeler
4. Bracewell, Bennett, Gillespie, Small, Bartlett (with Phlegm on him, looks a good prospect),
5. McClenaghan, Arnel, McKay

 

[Athlai]

Agree with geg here

 

[Hurricane]

I'd be tempted to rest him, based on fitness and not performance. I think he's been written off too quickly because of this Test. It's not panic stations yet.

My post will raise some eyebrows but I would be tempted to rest southee and boult for the next test just to protect them from injury and because they might be stuffed. I didn't suggest that though as they are too good to be rested. I figured instead the safest person to rest at least was Wagner and having some fresh legs might make a world of difference. I do think we need a fresh bowler amongst the three of them. I know Australia would rotate someone in.

 

[straw man]

Phlegm's Coney and Turner thing from yesterday I think -
http://arntrnassets.mediaspanonline.com/radio/s01/1110230/A1158_20131207043622913_0.mp3

I can't listen to it on these gouging holiday internet rates.

I liked the point made by Coney about 'innovative' field placings - that the media (and I'd include many commentators as well) LOVE innovative field placings because it gives them something to talk about, and they love it even more when one of these hunches pays off with a wicket. These are memorable and they can then wax lyrical about that genius bit of thinking-outside-the-box captaincy. However it ignores the opportunities you may have missed by having that fielder there and not somewhere else, and may be confusing for the bowlers. Certainly I would like to see a regulation third slip employed a little more often, as that's the first catcher that disappears when we're putting funky catchers elsewhere. Coney said of McCullum 'going with a few hunch field placings is good... but changing everything every two overs is maybe a little much.'

Unless the batsman has a pronounced flaw (e.g always flicks uppishly through midwicket), my belief is that any positives of funky field placements have more to do with a psychological effect on the batsman rather than where the fielder is actually standing.

 

[hendrix]

My only criticism of McCullum's captaincy was when on day 3 after tea, with the ball 15 overs old he bowled Wagner and Sodhi rather than Southee and Boult even though it was directly after tea.

Also, he under-utilised Anderson despite the fact that he was both more containing and more threatening than Wagner.

Other than that I didn't have a problem with his field placements or anything like that. They weren't particularly wacky or anything.

 

[James]

My post will raise some eyebrows but I would be tempted to rest southee and boult for the next test just to protect them from injury and because they might be stuffed. I didn't suggest that though as they are too good to be rested. I figured instead the safest person to rest at least was Wagner and having some fresh legs might make a world of difference. I do think we need a fresh bowler amongst the three of them. I know Australia would rotate someone in.

I'd rather work them into the ground that they fall over injured for the India series which we stand virtually no hope of getting anything out of IMO. Can you imagine what the Indians would have done to us on that University Oval pitch?

Or the other option is, just rest Southee and Boult from all the one-dayers against the WIndies.

 

[Mike5181]

My post will raise some eyebrows but I would be tempted to rest southee and boult for the next test just to protect them from injury and because they might be stuffed. I didn't suggest that though as they are too good to be rested. I figured instead the safest person to rest at least was Wagner and having some fresh legs might make a world of difference. I do think we need a fresh bowler amongst the three of them. I know Australia would rotate someone in.

Remember Williamson is likely to make his return in the next test match, so realistically we can throw him 5-10 overs a day. That should help with the fatigue a bit. I'd like to see us get a bit more out of Anderson as well, unless he actually is still struggling with injuries. He can look ineffective at times, but his ability to keep it tight is incredibly useful when some of the other bowlers haven't turned up, like Wagner in this test match.

Other than Williamson in for Redmond, I wouldn't make any other changes personally. Maybe my opinion would be different if our reserve fast bowler wasn't Doug Bracewell, and Adam Milne/Matt Henry were in the squad instead.

 

[Immenso]

Boult's a test specialist, he doesn't get a rest after the first test.

Bracewell rotated in for Wagner for next test as fresh legs, Wagner back for 3rd test.

 

[Flem274*]

I don't know why we're shying away from Wagner, based on one test. He was our best in Bangladesh and doesn't deserve to be dropped unless he has a mare in the remaining Tests. Thing about Cairns was he was a legit top 3 seamer in the country, often our best. Neesham is currently no Cairns - who really was the truest all-rounder since he could've been picked as top 6 batsman or top 3 bowler alone. As good as Neesham is getting, he's not in either of those two categories right now IMO. Whereas Anderson is arguably good enough to be picked on batting alone.



I'd be tempted to rest him, based on fitness and not performance. I think he's been written off too quickly because of this Test. It's not panic stations yet.



Thing is Bennett, Milne, Bracewell and even McClenaghan have some fair years ahead of them. They're not quite at a level similar to Southee or Boult, and are a year or two away from getting to that level, though to get there they will need some Test time to mature in the same way Boult and Southee have. At the same time those two are still not a finished product so to have 3 young quicks without an experienced seamer might see us behind the eight ball more than being in control. I think Wagner has the experience and skill to be there when Boult and Southee aren't getting it quite right, the kind of way he did in Bangladesh, but also able to be a strike bowler. Bracewell, Bennett and Milne aren't capable of providing that kind of contribution at this time IMO. McClenaghan being a bit older and having some limited overs success, I'd be actually keen to see how he handles the red ball at Test level, even if his FC average is 39...

I would view the seamers list as

1) Southee, Boult
2) Wagner
3) Milne, McClenaghan, Bennett
4) Bracewell, Gillespie
5) Wheeler, Henry, McKay, Arnel, Bates
6) Kuggeleijn, Baker, van Beek

Extremely minor quibble: Would play Butler, Bartlett, Neesham etc or almost anyone ahead of Kuggs, Baker and van Beek. Mitch probably a bit high in the pecking order too.

Anyway, my picks fwiw.

1) Southee replacements - Henry, Bracewell
2) Boult replacements - Wagner, Wheeler, maybe McKay
3) Third seamer - Wagner, Milne, Bennett, Gillespie, Butler, Bartlett, Mitch M etc

Not sure on whether to play Wagner next test. He seemed out of rhythm and down on zip when I was able to watch, and I've never been sold on trying to manufacture him into a new role, but I understand he pulled his socks up later on and bowled ok. Dropping him on one test is harsh, but also if he's out of form and steam and needs a spell on the bench then he should get it. Probably something those closer to the issue can judge better than the fans, like the Gillespie decision.

As I said, if Wagner has to go then favoritism demands Milne.

 

[James]

Remember Williamson is likely to make his return in the next test match, so realistically we can throw him 5-10 overs a day. That should help with the fatigue a bit. I'd like to see us get a bit more out of Anderson as well, unless he actually is still struggling with injuries. He can look ineffective at times, but his ability to keep it tight is incredibly useful when some of the other bowlers haven't turned up, like Wagner in this test match.

Other than Williamson in for Redmond, I wouldn't make any other changes personally. Maybe my opinion would be different if our reserve fast bowler wasn't Doug Bracewell, and Adam Milne/Matt Henry were in the squad instead.

If Williamson is back, maybe it's worth bringing in Gillespie for Sodhi? Especially considering it's in home conditions for him at the Basin.

Williamson > Sodhi with the ball.

 

[Flem274*]

I'd rather work them into the ground that they fall over injured for the India series which we stand virtually no hope of getting anything out of IMO. Can you imagine what the Indians would have done to us on that University Oval pitch?

Or the other option is, just rest Southee and Boult from all the one-dayers against the WIndies.

If we lose to India again I will scream. It's a pretty sorry indictment to be losing to them in our own conditions which are so different to theirs, and pretty indicative of how our conditions have changed. Even some of the very worst New Zealand sides kept them in check before 2009. What will be crucial in that series is how India handle the swing of Southee and Boult.

 

[Mike5181]

If Williamson is back, maybe it's worth bringing in Gillespie for Sodhi? Especially considering it's in home conditions for him at the Basin.

Williamson > Sodhi with the ball.

I think there's enough seam bowling options there with Southee/Boult/Wagner/Anderson, without adding a fifth seamer in Mark Gillespie. I've never been one to throw out the old "variation" excuse for selecting someone, but I think Sodhi bowled quite well in this test match and offers something a bit different. We probably can't rely on Williamson to do the job of a specialist spin bowler either. Not necessarily because he's not good enough to occupy that role in the NZ team atm, but because I'm not sure I want him bowling 49 overs in an innings like Sodhi did in this test match.

 

[Prince EWS]

I wasn't home yesterday (wish I was though, I have the worst hangover of all time as a result) so I couldn't watch the game or post on here, but I'm absolutely gutted for New Zealand. The worst I've felt about a cricket result for non-financial reasons in a very long time.

 

[WindieWeathers]

[/B]

Shane Dowrich is really neat behind the stumps, don't know if he will be a 40+ guy in front of the stumps. Johnson Charles keeping is improving and batting at 7 in tests is a bit easier than opening in a odi. His keeping will still need to improve futher.

Yeah Dowrich is a real talent!!..already played a season of league cricket in england and is a solid batsman..gets unlucky because he's usual left on not out when batting for bim because of coming in at seven.

Charles is an interesting one but he'd have to keep for winwards in the four day competition before he'd be trusted to make the test side..if he did dedicate himself though he'd be an interesting option as no doubt the kid has improved as a batsman in recent years.

Jahmar hamilton is also coming along nicely and young Pooran and Shai Hope look decent prospects for the future.

 

[James]

If we lose to India again I will scream. It's a pretty sorry indictment to be losing to them in our own conditions which are so different to theirs, and pretty indicative of how our conditions have changed. Even some of the very worst New Zealand sides kept them in check before 2009. What will be crucial in that series is how India handle the swing of Southee and Boult.

The Indian side of 2013 is a far better "team" compared to what we've seen previously though and they have some fairly decent pace-men coming through for the first time in a while. I think their current team would beat the team of 2008/09 that toured NZ.

I'd like to see us produce some green-seamers, but if we're continuing to rollout batting paradise pitches like the University Oval the likes of Dhoni, Kohli, Dhawan and company are going to have a field day and it's playing right into their hands with their quality spinners.

I think we should start locking in our bowling attack for the Indian series now, hence the dropping of Sodhi for another seamer.