***Official*** England in India 2016/17

[Scaly piscine]

Oh well on the plus side sounds like Jennings bowled alright.

Looking forward to seeing a change in attitude and culture in the England setup sooner rather than later.

 

[honestbharani]

Was there outrage in our media? I read several articles in cricinfo saying "all this will be forgotten when the next Yusuf Pathan/Manish Pandey smashes the fastest IPL hundred, which is the endemic problem with Indian cricket" etc..

TBH, I feel WC losses get highlighted by our mainstream media far more. Probably because they are able to tie in other celebrity stuff, Anushka Sharma and all that with cricket coverage to capture casual "fans". They paper over Test series defeats abroad.

So you see guys like Bhuvaneshwar Kumar being perennially underrated since they aren't regulars in the ODI/T20 side while the likes of Hardik Pandya are "superstars". Or Rohit Sharma getting such a long run in Tests.

Well, at least there was outrage amongst the more influential voices in the media. In fact, the very line that "media will forget all about it after IPL or ODI successes" itself became a big talking point in the media.

 

[MW1304]

They made close to 500, what exactly is the problem with their batting?

In fact this is the first tour in an absolute age where I could definitively state that the batting did better than the bowling.

 

[honestbharani]

In the very next paragraph I say that the management can't think like that. They've got to look to improve the players and tactics for next time.

But what I or some random Bob Willis thinks in the press is basically irrelevant. We don't have any part to play in how England perform. It doesn't matter whether I am defeatist or whatever. I'm a fan. I'm not playing. It's the team and the ECB management that can impact how they go.

And the fact is you can't do much without the personnel. The thing is I personally look at the quality of the players on offer of both teams and make assesment of how I think the teams are matched up and how the series will go. I said before they went to Bangladesh that it would most likely be 5-0 or 4-1 in India. You can try all you want and try and do better but if you don't have decent spinners you aren't going to win in India - at least on the wickets they're putting out these days.

And to be fair to the ECB they've changed the toss rules in county cricket to try and promote spin and there were some minor improvements this year with more spin being bowled and different wickets - but it'll be 5-10 years before you see any massive benefits from that I would guess.

Bob Willis really isn't a respected voice in English cricket. He's an utterly predictable curmodgeon who is relegated to the Verdict to make his turgidly-delivered rants. You can get a laugh out of the odd comment from him but not many people are going to take his opinion very seriously.

@hb I think you're fixating on 'in these conditions' in the wrong way. It's just a clear fact to all observers in the last few years that each team has been vastly superior in their own countries. It's even more of an obvious fact that we in particular have struggled massively when the spinners are needed to do most of the work. We can't expect to go to India and be strongly competitive in every match, it would be unreasonable to expect. We do, however, want our players to at least do the best they can, and maybe even surprise us in a few ways.

But I don't see how it's wrong, as fans, to be resigned to a result when all the evidence we have seen pointed to that in the first place. We're not the players, we can't be expected to hold to the same levels of self-belief that the players have to display; ultimately we're just observers of the game. But I hope the backroom staff and everybody involved, as theegyptian said, hold themselves to higher standards and expect a lot better. The media is somewhat the same, there's a bunch of different voices in there and I don't think you can point to one overriding culture within it that shapes the way the team plays. As an institution you have to separate yourself from that to a great extent.

Fair enough, guys. Both of you make excellent points and I guess my post was more of an immediate reaction to having just watched that Verdict program. I do think there is an issue within the team management though of a number of players being a little like "wait till we get you in our conditions" there. Certainly, I have seen past England teams be a lot more genial in defeat here in India than these blokes have been. vcs made the point in another thread that England did a LOT of things right in this series and were still comprehensively beaten and outplayed and guess it is a little hard to take for some of these players, whom, for all we know, are working harder than they ever have in a cricket series. So, fair enough, but I just feel at least some of the senior could have reacted to the beating a little better than they have, in public at least. Just my two cents.

 

[Heboric]

They made close to 500, what exactly is the problem with their batting?

Well its is still 0 in the win column. So something is not going right. There is no Almost Won column

 

[vcs]

I don't see what else England could have possibly tried from the bowling point of view in terms of selection. They tried Ansari, Batty, Woakes, Ball, Dawson.. none of them worked.

Cook's captaincy and (lack of) use of Stokes in this game, and Anderson/Woakes in the previous one are the most shocking mistakes for me. The Kohli-Yadav partnership in the last game basically killed England in this series, and Cook really messed up badly there.

 

[honestbharani]

Think it is a bit like how when India tour England or Australia or RSA or NZ, we keep saying that stacking a bowlers' deck might actually give India a sniff but on a regular wicket where run making is not very difficult but bowlers still get something if they bowl well, India are basically toast because of how inept our seamers are. This is just the same here for England on these tracks. I do think we will see some more turning tracks in the Australia series though, just because they will be late season wickets by then.

 

[Furball]

Batting for once wasn't the issue.

The one positive from the tour is that India have been made to work hard for their wins. End of the day we've come up against a team that's better in conditions that suit them.

There's positives to take. Hameed and Jennings look like prospects. Root has done well, Moeen's been great with the bat.

It would be nice to have a properly good spinner and for Broad and Anderson to have not been injured but what can you do?

Scheduling's a big thing the board need to get right.

 

[Bijed]

I'm all for discipline in a team, but, badly as things have gone, I think Bayliss is over-reacting here

 

[ankitj]

Was there outrage in our media? I read several articles in cricinfo saying "all this will be forgotten when the next Yusuf Pathan/Manish Pandey smashes the fastest IPL hundred, which is the endemic problem with Indian cricket" etc..

TBH, I feel WC losses get highlighted by our mainstream media far more. Probably because they are able to tie in other celebrity stuff, Anushka Sharma and all that with cricket coverage to capture casual "fans". They paper over Test series defeats abroad.

So you see guys like Bhuvaneshwar Kumar being perennially underrated since they aren't regulars in the ODI/T20 side while the likes of Hardik Pandya are "superstars". Or Rohit Sharma getting such a long run in Tests.

There was certainly outrage among Indian media and Indian observers. All serious cricket followers I talk to remember 2011 England tour with a lot of hurt. And serious followers is who HB and you are talking about I suppose.

 

[wpdavid]

I don't see what else England could have possibly tried from the bowling point of view in terms of selection. They tried Ansari, Batty, Woakes, Ball, Dawson.. none of them worked.

Cook's captaincy and (lack of) use of Stokes in this game, and Anderson/Woakes in the previous one are the most shocking mistakes for me. The Kohli-Yadav partnership in the last game basically killed England in this series, and Cook really messed up badly there.

Well, they could have tried taking the spinner with by far the best record in the county championship last summer.

Now OK, obviously there's no guarantee that he'd have been good enough to trouble Kohli and chums enough to change the result, and I do understand that the players not chosen will always rise in stature when the team gets as badly thrashed as this. But if they really thought that Batty, Ansari and Dawson were better bets, then they can expect one almighty spraying afaics.

Beyond that, we'll see how often India pass 600 and even 700 against Australia next year. I suspect that Aus will make them work rather harder for their runs tbh.

 

[GIMH]

They'll be able to declare on 250 after bowling Oz out for 8 tbf

 

[flibbertyjibber]

They made close to 500, what exactly is the problem with their batting?

Scores in last 2 tests have been very good, think the bowling has struggled due to the fact it is the 6th and 7th tests in a ridiculously short space of time.

That and a lack of quality in the spin department of course.

 

[Flem274*]

look what happens when you drop rohit

 

[S.Kennedy]

I think the only way to have a chance against India is to have about four - five touring matches like the good old days and really acclimatise.

 

[KungFu_Kallis]

Well, they could have tried taking the spinner with by far the best record in the county championship last summer.

Beyond that, we'll see how often India pass 600 and even 700 against Australia next year. I suspect that Aus will make them work rather harder for their runs tbh.

Who will, Lyon or Maxwell?

 

[KungFu_Kallis]

They made close to 500, what exactly is the problem with their batting?

They made their runs on the flat "draw" decks, but what happened on the harder turning decks?

 

[Burgey]

I suspect Starc and Hazelwood, assuming they're both fit. Starc in particular was crazy good vs SL. If he gets reverse at his pace he's going to be dangerous.

 

[mackembhoy]

Our batting has been crap apart from in Rajkot. Under par massively.

Our bowling was always gonna be an issue if it didn't reverse. The batters needed to be above par to compensate.

Rashid has second best wickets by a leggie in a series in India. 4th best by an Englishman in India(best on 40 years)and the best by an English legspinner in any series.

To be outbowled by a much better and experienced spinner is no shame. Moeen has done **** all with the ball. Need a full time spin coach desperately.

 

[Kirkut]

Lol, if this was 90's when Indian media and fans gave two hoots about game results except when we play Pakistan, I'm pretty sure Azharuddin would have asked Nair to bat as much as he wants and break Lara/Sobers record of highest test score.