Cook Vs the WI quartet of the 80s

[Howe_zat]

...I think Ian Botham made a similar observation. I have not seen anyone in the present bowl as fast as Patterson did on that day.

I don't think Cook is qualified to talk about this, because he never watched Patterson et al bowl. It would be more interesting to hear Botham's view on the subject, because he faced the WI quartet, and as a commentator, he's watched the present group of players...

Ian Botham has never said anything worth listening to since he moved into the commentator's chair.

I don't agree with what Cook supposedly said, but it's definately true that former internationals cloud their comments with nostalgia.

 

[hang on]

on the topic of holding, a charming piece by mike selvey

Never in my life had I faced a bowler as swift as Michael Holding | Mike Selvey | Sport | The Guardian

some interesting stuff in the comments section, too.

 

[hang on]

the question is:

is sepia worse for judgement than technicolour whatchamacallit panavision?

 

[Teja.]

Speed is impossible to distinguish with the naked eye apart from a rough range of 10-15 km, IMO. A lot of balls 'look' faster than other balls of the same speed. ex. short balls, balls just outside of beating batsmen, yorkers etc.

 

[vcs]

Selvey loves Holding. Can't blame him TBF.

 

[silentstriker]

Michael Holding

"Standing 6ft 4 1/2in tall, Holding was all grace and showed unmistakable quality, class and speed off a long rhythmic run to the wicket. In this same series with the introduction of the speed gun technology, Michael Holding still only twenty one was a shade faster than the Australian Jeff Thomson. Holdings fastest ball was clock at 97 mph,"

But, as I said, Holding pointed out in his autobiography that although he bowled very fast in Australia, he was expensive because he lacked control. In later series, he learnt to vary his pace, mixing it up with slower balls and very quick ones.

The fastest spell of pace bowling I've ever seen was at Sabina Park in 1986, when Patrick Patterson made his debut, and destroyed England. I think Ian Botham made a similar observation. I have not seen anyone in the present bowl as fast as Patterson did on that day.

I don't think Cook is qualified to talk about this, because he never watched Patterson et al bowl. It would be more interesting to hear Botham's view on the subject, because he faced the WI quartet, and as a commentator, he's watched the present group of players.

Interestingly, Patterson never learnt how to bowl anything other than fast, so he was one-dimensional, and didn't last long....

During the fastest bowler competition, his average was in the 130s and his fastest was low 140s. Thommo was highest with an average in 140s with highest as 147 (though this was post injury - prior to that it's not improbable that he was 5-10+ kph faster). So thommo at his peak I can believe 97 as an upper range. Not really for Holding.

 

[Bun]

Speed is impossible to distinguish with the naked eye apart from a rough range of 10-15 km, IMO. A lot of balls 'look' faster than other balls of the same speed. ex. short balls, balls just outside of beating batsmen, yorkers etc.

proof?

 

[fredfertang]

Speed is impossible to distinguish with the naked eye apart from a rough range of 10-15 km, IMO. A lot of balls 'look' faster than other balls of the same speed. ex. short balls, balls just outside of beating batsmen, yorkers etc.

Quite happy to accept that's correct, but you can generally tell just how quick individual bowlers in a side are in comparison to each other by watching how the batters react to them

 

[silentstriker]

Quite happy to accept that's correct, but you can generally tell just how quick individual bowlers in a side are in comparison to each other by watching how the batters react to them

That's true to a degree I think. Many bowlers, due to their actions or other conditions, appear 'faster' to the batsman than other bowlers, so while how the batsman reacts is the more important criteria in terms of effectiveness, if you're talking about speed for the pure academic value of it, I don't think that applies either. Obviously if someone is bowling 125 vs 150, then it's a different story and no action difference would likely make that up but most times if you're asking that question, it's usually not that significant a difference.

It's funny because I distinctly remember PRIOR to speed guns, some people (including batsmen) were calling McGrath really fast (not Akhtar but still very rapid)...then the speed guns made them do a double take. He was hard to face for other reasons but even the batsmen had a hard time exactly putting their finger on it.

 

[fredfertang]

Many bowlers, due to their actions or other conditions, appear 'faster' to the batsman than other bowlers

Yes that's a good point and one I overlooked - those who faced him always said Thommo seemed faster because his action meant his hand, and accordingly the ball, was out of the batsman's sight until the last moment - mind you that notwithstanding I find it difficult to believe there has been a faster bowler than Jeff Thomson circa 74/75

 

[silentstriker]

Yes that's a good point and one I overlooked - those who faced him always said Thommo seemed faster because his action meant his hand, and accordingly the ball, was out of the batsman's sight until the last moment - mind you that notwithstanding I find it difficult to believe there has been a faster bowler than Jeff Thomson circa 74/75

Yea it's entirely possible. He won the fastest bowler competition with a fastest delivery of 148kph ish and that was in 1979 when he wasn't really near his fastest. I could easily him hitting close to 100mph at his fastest and on average being faster than guys like Lee or Akhtar.

 

[smash84]

Yes that's a good point and one I overlooked - those who faced him always said Thommo seemed faster because his action meant his hand, and accordingly the ball, was out of the batsman's sight until the last moment - mind you that notwithstanding I find it difficult to believe there has been a faster bowler than Jeff Thomson circa 74/75

yes the action makes a huge difference. Wasim was deceptively quick with a short run up.

 

[silentstriker]

Yea, with Wasim it was the arm speed that did everything and it was a different action so batsmen had to get used to it, which probably made him seem faster than he was, and certainly made him more effective.

 

[Burgey]

Ian Botham has never said anything worth listening to since he moved into the commentator's chair.

I don't agree with what Cook supposedly said, but it's definately true that former internationals cloud their comments with nostalgia.

It's also true that contemporary players cloud theirs with hubris.

 

[smash84]

It's also true that contemporary players cloud theirs with hubris.

Indeed

 

[Dan]

Was listening to Rodney Hogg speak on Friday night, and he said that he judged it by how far back the 'keeper stood. Told us a story about how he walked out to face Jeff Thompson in a Shield match, and swore the wicketkeeper was all but on the fence. At test level, pretty sure he rated Holding as the quickest he faced.

And then he claimed to have seen Joel Garner (?) hit the sightscreen on one bounce at the WACA. Thats scarily quick.

 

[Burgey]

Was listening to Rodney Hogg speak on Friday night, and he said that he judged it by how far back the 'keeper stood. Told us a story about how he walked out to face Jeff Thompson in a Shield match, and swore the wicketkeeper was all but on the fence. At test level, pretty sure he rated Holding as the quickest he faced.

And then he claimed to have seen Joel Garner (?) hit the sightscreen on one bounce at the WACA. Thats scarily quick.

There's some footage of Lillee and Thomson on YouTube where Thommo lets go an insanely wide bouncer down leg side which hits the fence at the Gabba on either the first or second bounce. It was in the second innings iirc.

 

[Top_Cat]

Hoggy was always prone to hyperbole, though....

 

[Furball]

Was listening to Rodney Hogg speak on Friday night, and he said that he judged it by how far back the 'keeper stood. Told us a story about how he walked out to face Jeff Thompson in a Shield match, and swore the wicketkeeper was all but on the fence. At test level, pretty sure he rated Holding as the quickest he faced.

And then he claimed to have seen Joel Garner (?) hit the sightscreen on one bounce at the WACA. Thats scarily quick.

I'll bet every penny I have that that particular story is complete and utter bull****.

 

[smash84]

I'll bet every penny I have that that particular story is complete and utter bull****.

doesn't mean anything tbh