Hadlee, Khan, Dev, Botham - Who was the best allrounder?

[Black_Warrior]

Imran has 775 runs in 33 innings with 5 Not Outs, 1 100 and 3 50s
Botham has 792 runs in 38 innings with 1` not out, 450s.

I really do not see the difference in their batting performance.

Bowling yes Imran stands out because he was the better bowler hands down.

Bowling - Imran stands out

Batting..even if there isnt much of a difference..I would still pick someone who averages 27 over someone who average 21..and add the huge difference in bowling..makes it very easy.

Beefy's stats took a hit when his bowling workload was high and so did Imran's. Botham generally batted top 6 and opened the bowling, sometimes first change. He had the pressure of being one his side's best batters and bowlers on top of a fairly hefty county workload. Imran batted 7 or below when his bowling workload was high. Not saying Imran was shirking either; if you're going to bowl big overs, you really should bat lower and because Imran was captain, he could obviously put himself wherever.

Just saying, no matter what he felt/thought, Both walked out to bat at 6 and knew he had to open the bowling too. Imran could back off if he was feeling the pinch which any all-rounder, especially one who bowled at his pace, would feel and he did, as he's said himself. It was just a different team environment. Had Botham been able to back off his bowling workload, well, it's all hypotheticals as to what he could have done but his Test history backs up the logic that if you don't have to throw down 30 overs a day, you'll have more in the tank to bat for longer periods of time.

Using the argument that Imran was captain so he could choose when to bat is a pretty poor argument in my opinion. Botham was made captain too..he failed..he could have had the luxury Imran had..
Using the captaincy argument is just poor when we are talking about acheivements.. I can use the argument that Imran had the added pressure of captaincy, plus performed as an allrounder..makes him all the more superior to Botham too..
No player will ever find himself in a perfect situation.. You have to perform in the situation you find yourself in. Botham had the extra pressure of having to bowl 30 overs and bat in the top 6..Granted..Imran had the extra pressure of bowling 30 overs on dead Pakistani pitches for most of his life..
Each play will find himself in different circumstances..its what they do within those limitations that makes them great.

I dont want to come across as rude sorry..If you feel Botham could have performed better if had batted 7 or lower..thats fine.. Just pointing out that each cricketer will find himself in unique and specific circumstances.

 

[fredfertang]

Imran did precisely that, just better, during his bowling peak 1980-88, averaged over 40 with the bat and 17 with the ball. While captain to boot.

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

Indeed but, as you'd expect, Imran's talent developed as his career progressed to allow him to achieve that and no doubt that was due in no small part to hard work - Botham started brilliantly and tailed off - the point I was making was simply to wonder what Botham might have achieved had he had the attitude of an Imran

 

[Zinzan]

For me the real debate is whether there's ever been a true & complete 'world-class' Test all-rounder in the sense of someone averaging >40 with bat & <26 with ball.

Statistically, Faulkner, Miller & Imran (and Beefy in the first half of his career) are only players close in a true 'all-round' respect.

The other batting all-rounders such as Sober & Kallis & bowling all-rounders like Hadlee, Kapil & Pollock don't cut the mustard in one discipline imo.

 

[taipan1]

Kallis would definitely be picked for his bowling. He rarely if ever had the benefit of bowling with the new ball. In fact his bowling average is less than many specialist bowlers.

 

[GIMH]

Might want to have a look at how much bowling vs batting Imran did in his series' against the WI.

Beefy's stats took a hit when his bowling workload was high and so did Imran's. Botham generally batted top 6 and opened the bowling, sometimes first change. He had the pressure of being one his side's best batters and bowlers on top of a fairly hefty county workload. Imran batted 7 or below when his bowling workload was high. Not saying Imran was shirking either; if you're going to bowl big overs, you really should bat lower and because Imran was captain, he could obviously put himself wherever.

Just saying, no matter what he felt/thought, Both walked out to bat at 6 and knew he had to open the bowling too. Imran could back off if he was feeling the pinch which any all-rounder, especially one who bowled at his pace, would feel and he did, as he's said himself. It was just a different team environment. Had Botham been able to back off his bowling workload, well, it's all hypotheticals as to what he could have done but his Test history backs up the logic that if you don't have to throw down 30 overs a day, you'll have more in the tank to bat for longer periods of time.

All that said, Botham really didn't take care of himself as an elite athlete and that should be held against him when it clearly took its toll on his performances. Even if it was the days before elite conditioning in cricket, it wasn't rocket surgery that the fittest players lasted the longest as they got older.

Such a good post. You win the thread.

 

[Top_Cat]

Such a good post. You win the thread.

Allrounder threads aren't a measure of who's right, they're a measure of who's left.....awake.

 

[Migara]

dude... I am not saying botham was the better allrounder overall. Imran was. I was just trying to use statistics to underline my belief that though imran won this battle for posterity, botham was winning it for 10 years of imran's 18-20 year career. and for that he deserves a lot more respect than he gets normally.

The point I was showing that Imran and Botham had their peaks in different times. But the Botham lovers here were stating thatBotham at his peak was better than Imran during that time. This comparison is a "cherry picking". What you should compare is Botham's peak to Imran's peak (although was in a different time). In that comparison Imran beats Botham hands down, and the very last argument of Botham lovers to say they pick Botham over Imran due to his better "peak" has been shattered by it.

 

[Migara]

Botham v Khan. My 5 cents -

Batting
Botham easily the more talented. Greater range of shots, 14 centuries. Imran more guarded, average supported by not outs.

Talent is nothing without performance.
Greater range of shots does not mean a better batsman. Mendis plays every shot in the book. Samaraweera has very few shots. But everybody knows who's better. Botham played more tests, and batted higher up. Hence more centuries. Tendulkar has more centuries than Bradman, but we all agree Bradman was better.

 

[Migara]

If Botham had retired on 51 instead of 102 tests this wouldn't even be a discussion. 11 centuries, batting average of 36 (not propped by not outs) with 230+ wickets at 23 and umpteen catches.

And if Imran has debuted after being a fully fledged fast bowler rather than a medium pacer, would have had batting average of 45 abd bowling average of 19. Then comparing him to Sobers or Miller wouldn't have been a discussion. This is stats picking

Botham was the most naturally gifted of the 2, and of the 4. I don't see how anyone could dispute that.

Still no. Hadlee was the most naturally gifted bowler, and would have walked over Botham to any side just because of his bowling alone.

His batting could and did win matches. He scored 14 centuries which puts him way ahead of the rest, and he maintained a strike rate of 60ish which, for the 80s especially, was superb.

and so was Kapil's. Even more destructive batsman than Botham. Kapil in his peak beat Botham hands down with big hitting in the two series they played against each other.

His fielding was top notch, among the best in the world, way ahead of the rest.

And Imran was a captain and a gentleman was waaay ahead of Botham. Having said that Kapil Dev was equally good in the field.

His bowling was also top notch to begin, at his peak he was in the same league as Khan, although probably not Hadlee, but his weight gain stiffled his action and caused injuries. However, he still acheived the small matter of breaking the world record in tests.

LMAO. Imran in his peak was much closer to Marshall, Hadlee or McGrath. Botham's peak does not come close to above greats. Imran in peak with the ball is few classes above Botham in his peak with the ball. Going back to your "compete / all round" theory, Imran was more complete as a fast bowler. Pace, bounce, swing, seam and reverse swing everything came in the same package.

The people who support Khan seem to hang their cloak on stats which is fair enough. A solid argument, no doubt. Khan's stats are awesome. A kind of Jaques Kallis in reverse.

Cherry picking of peaks have dangerous consequences. In his peak Mushtaq Mohammed was the best all rounder. Because no on managed a 100 and five for in the same match against WI of 75 - 95 era.

 

[Migara]

After 25 tests, so an established player, Botham averaged more than 40 with the bat and less than 20 with the ball - no one has come close to matching that - if only he hadn't got the idea in his head that all he had to do was turn up then, as Mr Z says, he'd be remembered as the greatest all rounder, imo by a Bradmanesque distance

Cheack that against last 50 tests of Imran as see what's your result.

 

[GIMH]

Gotta love someone who replies to a well-reasoned argument with 'LMAO' and littered throughout. Invalidates a whole argument IMO.

If all you did was reply with a laugh, that would actually be better than trying to argue a point and then throwing in your wannabe-intellectual dismissive nonsense.

 

[Migara]

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

Between 1974 and 1984, Botham scored 4000+ runs and took 312 Wickets, 13 100s and 24 fifers, with a 100 and 5fer in a single test 5 times.

Imran had only 4 100s and and 216 wickets, only once instance of a 100 and fifer.

Imran played 88 test compared to 102 of Botham, that too in a shorter career.

 

[Migara]

Gotta love someone who replies to a well-reasoned argument with 'LMAO' and littered throughout. Invalidates a whole argument IMO.

If all you did was reply with a laugh, that would actually be better than trying to argue a point and then throwing in your wannabe-intellectual dismissive nonsense.

Attacking the poster, not the post. Sign of a loser.

 

[GIMH]

Given that I referred specifically to what you said in your post, there is no way that could remotely be true.

 

[Migara]

Gotta love someone who replies to a well-reasoned argument with 'LMAO' and littered throughout. Invalidates a whole argument IMO.

If all you did was reply with a laugh, that would actually be better than trying to argue a point and then throwing in your wannabe-intellectual dismissive nonsense.

Identified as a description of a personal trait aimed at me, not at the post it self.

 

[GIMH]

No, it was obviously a follow-on from my comments about the laughs...as I see them as dismissive.

Do keep up.

 

[Ikki]

After 25 tests, so an established player, Botham averaged more than 40 with the bat and less than 20 with the ball - no one has come close to matching that - if only he hadn't got the idea in his head that all he had to do was turn up then, as Mr Z says, he'd be remembered as the greatest all rounder, imo by a Bradmanesque distance

Miller actually averaged 46 with the bat and 21 with the ball in his first 25 tests.

Cheack that against last 50 tests of Imran as see what's your result.

Maybe you should actually look at the last 50 tests instead of just looking at the ratios.

 

[Migara]

Maybe you should actually look at the last 50 tests instead of just looking at the ratios.

Don't see what is your point. I am actually speaking about last 50 tests.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Imran is considered among the premier bowler of his generation along with the likes of Marshall, Hadlee etc and rightly so, but if we are to cherry pick the stats for Imran this claims falls flat on the basis of away records.

Botham's Bowling figures are irrelevant in this context because the particular point I was making was about best fast bowlers of Imran's time.

It isn't like Imran averages 50 away from home.He averages 25,which is actually an incredible average.That he was exceptional on the flat pitches at home averaging 18 is again to his credit.Would it be better if Imran averaged 25 at home and 28 away?That way he'd have poorer overall stats but a smaller home-away average difference.

Performance against the best team is an important criterion.Imran was great against the best of his time,Botham wasn't.That isn't cherry-picking,sorry.

 

[Furball]

Subcontinental bowlers don't deserve extra praise for bowling well at home.