Hadlee, Khan, Dev, Botham - Who was the best allrounder?

[GuyFromLancs]

Batting

1. Botham
2. Kapil/Khan
3. Hadlee

I'd go Botham top, clearly, - then Kapil and Khan about evens, very different styles but similar levels of ability. Perhaps Kapil the more talented but Khan made the most. Hadlee behind them.


Bowling

1. Hadlee
2. Khan
3. Botham/Kapil

Hadlee one of the best bowlers ever if he'd never scored a run. 5+ wickets per test at 22. Khan close second, Botham more deadly than Kapil in his prime but points for Kapil in terms of work ethic and longevity.

Fielding

1. Botham
2. Kapil
3. Khan/Hadlee

Botham the best fielder. One of the best in the world in the early years. Kapil very good. Khan and Hadlee both unremarkable.

Allrounder

1. Botham
2. Khan
3. Kapil
4. Hadlee

Botham capable of winning matches with either bat and bowl in no time at all. The mark of a true allrounder.

Other

Bonus points for Khan for great leadership and longevity, and stats for that matter. It's a great debate point with these 4, probably because, unlike Sobers, these guys are bowling allrounders at heart - with Botham perhaps the one true complete allrounder in his prime.

My 2 cents.

 

[zaremba]

Botham was the most naturally gifted of the 2, and of the 4. I don't see how anyone could dispute that.

I remember Imran making precisely this point during the ball-tampering libel trial in the mid-90s.

Botham was freakishly talented in all aspects of the game. He had the ability to bowl beautiful outswing, to bat like Thor, and to catch anything in the slips, and he had the self-confidence to mix it with the best. However he also had a huge personality defect in that he was unable to practise properly and unable to look after himself properly, which reduced his effectiveness and which also shortened his career. If you took (say) Hadlee's singlemindedness and Botham's natural talent, you'd have a true rival for DB and WGG as the greatest player of all time.

 

[fredfertang]

After 25 tests, so an established player, Botham averaged more than 40 with the bat and less than 20 with the ball - no one has come close to matching that - if only he hadn't got the idea in his head that all he had to do was turn up then, as Mr Z says, he'd be remembered as the greatest all rounder, imo by a Bradmanesque distance

 

[subshakerz]

After 25 tests, so an established player, Botham averaged more than 40 with the bat and less than 20 with the ball - no one has come close to matching that - if only he hadn't got the idea in his head that all he had to do was turn up then, as Mr Z says, he'd be remembered as the greatest all rounder, imo by a Bradmanesque distance

Imran did precisely that, just better, during his bowling peak 1980-88, averaged over 40 with the bat and 17 with the ball. While captain to boot.

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

 

[Sanz]

Imran

home 163 wickets @ 19.20
away 199 wickets @ 25.76

How does that make Imran look bad?

Here are Botham's corresponding numbers

home 226 wickets @ 27.54
away 157 wickets @ 29.63

If Imran's numbers are bad then Botham's are crap.

+ how is it cherry picking to compare the two against the best of their time?

Imran is considered among the premier bowler of his generation along with the likes of Marshall, Hadlee etc and rightly so, but if we are to cherry pick the stats for Imran this claims falls flat on the basis of away records.

Botham's Bowling figures are irrelevant in this context because the particular point I was making was about best fast bowlers of Imran's time.

 

[Sanz]

Looking at their performance against the West Indies is not 'cherry-picking'. Are you saying its irrelevant? Most cricket fans/pundits consider it pretty important. You think Lara and Tendulkar would be ranked so highly if they averaged 20 against Australia?

Tendulkar's record against SA isn't that remarkable, does that stop people from calling him the best of his generation ahead of Ponting ?

 

[JBH001]

I remember Imran making precisely this point during the ball-tampering libel trial in the mid-90s.

Botham was freakishly talented in all aspects of the game. He had the ability to bowl beautiful outswing, to bat like Thor, and to catch anything in the slips, and he had the self-confidence to mix it with the best. However he also had a huge personality defect in that he was unable to practise properly and unable to look after himself properly, which reduced his effectiveness and which also shortened his career. If you took (say) Hadlee's singlemindedness and Botham's natural talent, you'd have a true rival for DB and WGG as the greatest player of all time.

This is true, although I'd think you also have to factor in the number of tests Botham played. IIRC up until his first breakdown with injury in 1982 he had played 50 or so tests in 5 years - a heavy workload, especially if you factor in, as I suspect, that unlike today's players he would not have been exempt from county cricket duties.

Where his batting is concerned, his SR is phenomenal, especially for that time. A career SR of over 60 and, seeing we are talking primes, a SR of 63/64 over that course of his career when he could still hold a bat - if not a ball. That compares favourably with stellar attacking players of today such as Ponting, Tendulkar and Lara etc all of whom have sub 60 SR. Of course, far out ahead of everybody here, is the under-rated Kapil who had a batting SR of 80. Now that is phenomenal.

If I chose an order from that lot at their best, I'd undoubtedly put Botham at the top, probably followed by Kapil, then Imran and Hadlee.

 

[Hurricane]

Just some memories of Botham. I remember him destroying Derek Stirling by smoking 24? off one over. Stirling beat him with a leg cutter on one delivery and the commentators tried to talk up a fightback by Stirling but the next ball went for six. This web site I found quotes the over as

Ian Botham (Eng) off Derek Stirling (NZ) at The Oval in 1986
24 (006666)

But in my minds eye I remember the leg cutter between some of the sixes. Must be a faulty memory.

I disapproved of Botham running out Boycott - I remember watching it live on TV. Boycott was batting apallingly slowly and Botham ran him out. Do the two of them get on well now?

In terms of the best all rounder. It is hard to look past Imran's stats. All four of them had star power though. Remarkable that they were around at the same time.

 

[Sanz]

Imran did precisely that, just better, during his bowling peak 1980-88, averaged over 40 with the bat and 17 with the ball. While captain to boot.

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

Between 1974 and 1984, Botham scored 4000+ runs and took 312 Wickets, 13 100s and 24 fifers, with a 100 and 5fer in a single test 5 times.

Imran had only 4 100s and and 216 wickets, only once instance of a 100 and fifer.

 

[JBH001]

Are you sure it was a 100 and a 5-fer in the same test 5 times? I am pretty certain it was 4 times along with a 50 and a 5-fer in the same test 8 times. IIRC Sanz, you actually rate Imran the better all-rounder though, no?

 

[Sanz]

Are you sure it was a 100 and a 5-fer in the same test 5 times? I am pretty certain it was 4 times along with a 50 and a 5-fer in the same test 8 times. IIRC Sanz, you actually rate Imran the better all-rounder though, no?

No I have always rated Botham as the better Allrounder. Infact I also rate Kapil ahead of Imran. Despite of what the averages say, from what I watched I saw two Imrans, one who played mainly as a batsman and the other who played as a bowler very rarely as both.

Here are the 5 tests where ITB took 5 or wickets and scored 100.

3rd Test: England v Australia at Leeds, Jul 16-21, 1981 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com
2nd Test: England v Pakistan at Lord's, Jun 15-19, 1978 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com
Only Test: India v England at Mumbai, Feb 15-19, 1980 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com
3rd Test: England v Australia at Leeds, Jul 16-21, 1981 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com
1st Test: New Zealand v England at Wellington, Jan 20-24, 1984 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com

 

[JBH001]

Ah sorry, my bad. I think I may agree with you regarding Kapil too, always under-rated in these types of discussions.

 

[Black_Warrior]

Tendulkar's record against SA isn't that remarkable, does that stop people from calling him the best of his generation ahead of Ponting ?

Not remarkable and poor are two different things.
Tendulkar's record against SA is not remarkable..but certainly not poor..
Botham against West Indies is just plain poor.

 

[Top_Cat]

Not remarkable and poor are two different things.
Tendulkar's record against SA is not remarkable..but certainly not poor..
Botham against West Indies is just plain poor.

Sachin didn't have to bowl 20 overs a day on top of batting though.

 

[Teja.]

IMHO,

Kapil and Botham are better allrounders compared to Imran.

Imran however, is far and away, the better cricketer.

 

[Black_Warrior]

Sachin didn't have to bowl 20 overs a day on top of batting though.

Not comparing Botham and Sachin as players..thats a silly comparision. I was making a point about performances against the top teams of your time whether as a bowler or a batsman. Its a very important criteria. It is the factor that differentiates a Mohammad Yousuf from Brian Lara...both average around 53 in test cricket. Whats the difference then?

Its not like Botham was spectacular in those 20 overs he bowled..he averaged 35. Imran had to bowl those 20 overs a day against WI too and averaged 21. On top of that he averaged 27 with the bat with a 100 against them.

Both are great players but when you compare two great players, you have to look at the specific factors performances against the best side is one of them.

 

[vcs]

Just some memories of Botham. I remember him destroying Derek Stirling by smoking 24? off one over. Stirling beat him with a leg cutter on one delivery and the commentators tried to talk up a fightback by Stirling but the next ball went for six. This web site I found quotes the over as



But in my minds eye I remember the leg cutter between some of the sixes. Must be a faulty memory.

I disapproved of Botham running out Boycott - I remember watching it live on TV. Boycott was batting apallingly slowly and Botham ran him out. Do the two of them get on well now?

In terms of the best all rounder. It is hard to look past Imran's stats. All four of them had star power though. Remarkable that they were around at the same time.

Kapil has also done that, when 24 runs were needed to avoid follow on.

 

[Sanz]

Its not like Botham was spectacular in those 20 overs he bowled..he averaged 35. Imran had to bowl those 20 overs a day against WI too and averaged 21. On top of that he averaged 27 with the bat with a 100 against them.

Both are great players but when you compare two great players, you have to look at the specific factors performances against the best side is one of them.

Imran has 775 runs in 33 innings with 5 Not Outs, 1 100 and 3 50s
Botham has 792 runs in 38 innings with 1` not out, 450s.

I really do not see the difference in their batting performance.

Bowling yes Imran stands out because he was the better bowler hands down.

 

[Top_Cat]

Might want to have a look at how much bowling vs batting Imran did in his series' against the WI.

Beefy's stats took a hit when his bowling workload was high and so did Imran's. Botham generally batted top 6 and opened the bowling, sometimes first change. He had the pressure of being one his side's best batters and bowlers on top of a fairly hefty county workload. Imran batted 7 or below when his bowling workload was high. Not saying Imran was shirking either; if you're going to bowl big overs, you really should bat lower and because Imran was captain, he could obviously put himself wherever.

Just saying, no matter what he felt/thought, Both walked out to bat at 6 and knew he had to open the bowling too. Imran could back off if he was feeling the pinch which any all-rounder, especially one who bowled at his pace, would feel and he did, as he's said himself. It was just a different team environment. Had Botham been able to back off his bowling workload, well, it's all hypotheticals as to what he could have done but his Test history backs up the logic that if you don't have to throw down 30 overs a day, you'll have more in the tank to bat for longer periods of time.

All that said, Botham really didn't take care of himself as an elite athlete and that should be held against him when it clearly took its toll on his performances. Even if it was the days before elite conditioning in cricket, it wasn't rocket surgery that the fittest players lasted the longest as they got older.

 

[Matt79]

Yeah, Miller's batting definitely suffered when he was asked to bowl lots of overs. End of the day, you'd be glad to have any of these four in your team.