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Hadlee, Khan, Dev, Botham - Who was the best allrounder?

subshakerz

International Coach
Botham touched heights I don't think any allrounder has managed to. But Imran Khan was gloriously consistent with the ball, sometimes simply brilliant, and was dependable as a batsman, particularly towards the end of his career. His bowling perhaps tailed off towards the very fag end of his career, but was still better than Botham's by a country mile and half. Botham was an underperformer since 1986 and managed to cling on for about 7 years. Also Botham the bowler was 5-6 good years overall and was largely **** for the rest of his career.
Except against the West Indies. Sorry, but all the Botham supporters seem to treat his failure against the West Indies, even at his peak, with both bat and ball as a non-issue. 14 tons and not one against the West Indies? And let's not talk of his bowling. It's a clear difference between him and Imran. It's also a big dent in his standing to me.

Between players of roughly the same caliber (though I think Imran is notably better) if one has succeeded against the best opposition available and the other failed, will go with the former.
 

bagapath

International Captain
Imran for the same period of time in his latter half of the career was several classes above Botham during his early half of the career. The differences in average is "gaping". Even at their peaks, Imran beats Botham hands down.
dude... I am not saying botham was the better allrounder overall. Imran was. I was just trying to use statistics to underline my belief that though imran won this battle for posterity, botham was winning it for 10 years of imran's 18-20 year career. and for that he deserves a lot more respect than he gets normally.
 
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Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Except against the West Indies. Sorry, but all the Botham supporters seem to treat his failure against the West Indies, even at his peak, with both bat and ball as a non-issue. 14 tons and not one against the West Indies? And let's not talk of his bowling. It's a clear difference between him and Imran. It's also a big dent in his standing to me.

Between players of roughly the same caliber (though I think Imran is notably better) if one has succeeded against the best opposition available and the other failed, will go with the former.
Once again cherry picking of the stat. Has anyone noticed the difference betweetn Imran's Away and Home Bowling average ? I am not trying to suggest anything buy just pointing that cherry picking of stats can be done for any player to make him look bad.
 

JBH001

International Regular
Given the choice of Imran or Botham at their best, and that is how I usually assess all time XIs, I'd take Botham every time. Not a doubt in my mind.
 
Once again cherry picking of the stat. Has anyone noticed the difference betweetn Imran's Away and Home Bowling average ? I am not trying to suggest anything buy just pointing that cherry picking of stats can be done for any player to make him look bad.
Imran

home 163 wickets @ 19.20
away 199 wickets @ 25.76

How does that make Imran look bad?

Here are Botham's corresponding numbers

home 226 wickets @ 27.54
away 157 wickets @ 29.63

If Imran's numbers are bad then Botham's are crap.

+ how is it cherry picking to compare the two against the best of their time?
 

Zinzan

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Of course it depends entirely on what criteria you use to rate them.

At their very best, I'd probably choose Botham....

However, if I was reflecting over their entire Test careers as all-rounders I'd rate them something like;


1) Imran

Batting - For periods at the back end of his career was good enough to be selected for his batting alone, scored 6 hundreds & averaged late-30s - As a test batman 7.5

Bowling - A magnificent bowler who had it all; pace, swing, seam, control along with an intelligent mind. As a test bowler 9

Imran Total 16.5

2) Botham

Batting - Despite averaging 3-4 runs less than Imran with the bat, lets not forget he scored 14 test hundreds & at his best played some of the most memorable game-changing innings in Test history. Like Imran, for periods could have made it purely for his batting. 7.5

Bowling - His bowling career was one of two-halves. It's easy to forget what a great swing bowler Botham was in his early days, used to get it going really late, even before reverse swing was known as it is today. However in judging their whole careers, I need to consider his decline as a bowler. Overall bowling 8

Botham Total 15.5

3) Hadlee

Batting - Definitely the weakest batsman of the 4 & unlike Botham & Imran he wasn't good enough to make it purely as a batsman for much of his career. Whilst he did improve to average over 30 throughout the 2nd half of his career, in the final wash scored just 2 hundreds (& a 99). Overall batting 5.5

Bowling - An absolute Rolls Royce of fast bowlers (only 2nd to the great Marshall in my humble one-eyed NZ opinion :tongue:) who cut down his action and mastered the art of swing & seam bowling 9.5

Hadlee total 15

4) Kapil

Batting - Overall, I have him slightly behind Botham & Imran with the bat. For those that didn't see much of him, was a magnificent striker of the ball who did score 6 hundreds & averaged around 30 in the final wash 6.5

Bowling - It must be noted that he played much of his career on dry dung-heaps, although would still rate him as the weakest of the 4 when it comes to bowling. Had a magnificent action & could be a devastating swing bowler in the right conditions 7.5

Kapil total 14
^ A re-post of mine from a similar thread a year back
 

GuyFromLancs

State Vice-Captain
Botham v Khan. My 5 cents -

Batting

Botham easily the more talented. Greater range of shots, 14 centuries. Imran more guarded, average supported by not outs.

Bowling

Imran, not much argument here.

Fielding

Botham, no contest

All-rounder

Botham, as he merged all facets of his game for 50 or so tests.

Biggest decline

Botham, one of the worst ever
 

subshakerz

International Coach
Once again cherry picking of the stat. Has anyone noticed the difference betweetn Imran's Away and Home Bowling average ? I am not trying to suggest anything buy just pointing that cherry picking of stats can be done for any player to make him look bad.
Looking at their performance against the West Indies is not 'cherry-picking'. Are you saying its irrelevant? Most cricket fans/pundits consider it pretty important. You think Lara and Tendulkar would be ranked so highly if they averaged 20 against Australia?
 

weldone

Hall of Fame Member
My quick overall ratings (off the top of my head) for allrounders of the late 70s and 80s-

Imran Khan: Batting 6, Bowling 9. Total 15.
Ian Botham: Batting 6.5, Bowling 7. Total 13.5.
Kapil Dev: Batting 6, Bowling 7. Total 13.
Clive Rice: Batting 7, Bowling 6. Total 13.
Richard Hadlee: Batting 3, Bowling 9.5. Total 12.5.
Mike Procter: Batting 4, Bowling 8. Total 12.
 
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Athlai

Not Terrible
Bowling allrounders are underrated. A bowler who can bat is better than a batsman who can bowl, discuss.
 
Looking at their performance against the West Indies is not 'cherry-picking'. Are you saying its irrelevant? Most cricket fans/pundits consider it pretty important. You think Lara and Tendulkar would be ranked so highly if they averaged 20 against Australia?
Agreed.I would say splitting Botham and Imran's careers into different parts is more like cherry picking.
 

Black_Warrior

Cricketer Of The Year
Bowling allrounders are underrated. A bowler who can bat is better than a batsman who can bowl, discuss.
More or less agree..in the sense I would necessarily demand of my batsmen to go bowl and take wickets if they can give me 100s.
On the other hand, bowlers who can bat are always a huge advantage..
The difference is, if your top 6 batting fails, your bowling all rounder can add a 50 or even a 100 and save the match for you
But if your bowlers fail, it is relatively less likely that Jacques Kallis will get you a 5er..unless he is up against the current Pakistani batting of course.
 

GuyFromLancs

State Vice-Captain
If Botham had retired on 51 instead of 102 tests this wouldn't even be a discussion. 11 centuries, batting average of 36 (not propped by not outs) with 230+ wickets at 23 and umpteen catches.

Botham was the most naturally gifted of the 2, and of the 4. I don't see how anyone could dispute that.

His batting could and did win matches. He scored 14 centuries which puts him way ahead of the rest, and he maintained a strike rate of 60ish which, for the 80s especially, was superb.

His fielding was top notch, among the best in the world, way ahead of the rest.

His bowling was also top notch to begin, at his peak he was in the same league as Khan, although probably not Hadlee, but his weight gain stiffled his action and caused injuries. However, he still acheived the small matter of breaking the world record in tests.

The people who support Khan seem to hang their cloak on stats which is fair enough. A solid argument, no doubt. Khan's stats are awesome. A kind of Jaques Kallis in reverse.

But in their primes, my money would be on botham to win the match every time.
 
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Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
Kapil Dev was very fit ftr. Has/had the record for most consecutive tests without missing a test or going his entire career without missing a test or some thing.
 

G.I.Joe

International Coach
Kapil Dev was very fit ftr. Has/had the record for most consecutive tests without missing a test or going his entire career without missing a test or some thing.
Yeah he never missed a test to injury. He was dropped for one single test on disciplinary grounds IIRC, otherwise it was 131 tests on the trot, which is remarkable and unmatched for a player that had to bowl as much as he did.
 

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