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Thread: The best minnow basher of this decade

  1. #31
    International Captain thierry henry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sean View Post
    while even Vettori has had a highly distinguished Test career.
    Including the minnow-bashing- kinda

    Excluding the minnow-bashing, his test career is somewhere close to pretty ******* horrible (esp with the ball)

  2. #32
    SJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBH001 View Post
    This feasting against minnows is a strange thing in cricketing terms, so often its a case of damned if you do, and damned if you dont.

    That said, I am a little perturbed to see so many of the SL batting order in that list of 'feasting' batsmen against Zim and Bang.
    Thtas easy to see once you look at this table :-

    Bangladesh and Zimbabwe's Test matches since entry to test cricket.

    Code:
    TEAM	BDS	ZIM	TOTAL
    SRL	12	15	27
    NZL	8	14	22
    PAK	6	15	21
    IND	5	11	16
    SAF	8	7	15
    WIN	4	6	10
    ENG	2	6	8
    AUS	4	3	7
    Mutual	8	8	8
    Notice NewZealand there in second place. It still didnt help their averages now did it. Wonder how many Kiwi fans are going to reassess what constitutes a minnow or what is minnow bashing ?

  3. #33
    Virat Kohli (c) Jono's Avatar
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    Kallis, Sachin, Vettori, Irfan Pathan and Murali all smash the minnows.

    Three of those five have outstanding stats against other teams as well.

    Henve it has to be Vettori and Irfan.
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  5. #35
    U19 Cricketer Cricket_God's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jono View Post
    Kallis, Sachin, Vettori, Irfan Pathan and Murali all smash the minnows.

    Three of those five have outstanding stats against other teams as well.

    Henve it has to be Vettori and Irfan.
    Well Smith also is an example,But then shane warne played against bangladesh on those flat pitches and was not outstanding ,irfan destroyed them with his swing and on the
    next tour on same pitches we struggled allthough we had better bowlers,so test sides
    should not be considered minnows.

  6. #36
    International Captain bagapath's Avatar
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    this is just in terms of test cricket

    overall bowling averages against different teams

    Code:
    v Australia 	1208 	1877-2009 	708 	6770 	757991 	349621 	10283 	10/53 	19/90 	33.99 	2.76 	73.7 	469 	71 
    v Pakistan 	770 	1952-2009 	337 	3173 	339699 	156046 	4755 	10/74 	14/149 	32.81 	2.75 	71.4 	189 	18 
    v Sri Lanka 	528 	1982-2009 	184 	1711 	177085 	86796 	2646 	8/58 	14/116 	32.80 	2.94 	66.9 	93 	14 
    v India 	933 	1932-2009 	429 	4203 	449588 	201914 	6157 	9/95 	13/106 	32.79 	2.69 	73.0 	233 	38 
    v West Indies 	911 	1928-2009 	455 	4277 	458828 	218649 	6689 	9/83 	16/136 	32.68 	2.85 	68.5 	301 	47 
    v England 	1358 	1877-2009 	884 	8359 	953675 	404434 	12933 	9/56 	16/137 	31.27 	2.54 	73.7 	593 	86 
    v South Africa 	812 	1889-2009 	344 	3407 	371907 	161350 	5181 	9/28 	17/159 	31.14 	2.60 	71.7 	222 	41 
    v New Zealand 	880 	1930-2009 	350 	3492 	369593 	148577 	5388 	8/53 	13/55 	27.57 	2.41 	68.5 	233 	35 
    v Zimbabwe 	288 	1992-2005 	83 	852 	84824 	36095 	1356 	9/51 	13/115 	26.61 	2.55 	62.5 	53 	9 
    v Bangladesh 	222 	2000-2009 	59 	591 	47292 	22339 	1103 	8/108 	12/82 	20.25 	2.83 	42.8 	57 	10 
    v ICC World XI 	11 	2005-2005 	1 	9 	583 	329 	20 	5/43 	9/82 	16.45 	3.38 	29.1 	1 	0
    overall batting averages against various teams

    Code:
    
    v Bangladesh 	222 	2000-2009 	59 	694 	127 	27819 	261* 	49.06 	83 	116 	54 	
    v Zimbabwe 	288 	1992-2005 	83 	1225 	194 	38238 	380 	37.08 	81 	183 	108 
    v India 	933 	1932-2009 	429 	7189 	1003 	205085 	340 	33.15 	426 	942 	697 
    v New Zealand 	880 	1930-2009 	350 	5579 	812 	157135 	336* 	32.96 	330 	687 	533 	
    v Sri Lanka 	528 	1982-2009 	184 	3114 	395 	82728 	313 	30.42 	156 	396 	336 
    v Pakistan 	770 	1952-2009 	337 	5805 	768 	151598 	365* 	30.09 	287 	700 	677 
    v West Indies 	911 	1928-2009 	455 	8270 	1087 	213219 	337 	29.68 	421 	928 	928 	
    v South Africa 	812 	1889-2009 	344 	6177 	773 	157001 	374 	29.05 	278 	696 	660 
    v England 	1358 	1877-2009 	884 	15885 	2033 	398067 	400* 	28.73 	696 	1825 	1745 	
    v Australia 	1208 	1877-2009 	708 	13440 	1602 	327243 	364 	27.64 	519 	1555 	1525 	
    v ICC World XI 	11 	2005-2005 	1 	22 	2 	503 	111 	25.15 	1 	3 	3
    it definitely looks like it is much easier to take bang and zim wickets. scoring runs against them is looking ridiculously simple. if you score 49 against bang it is the equivalent of scoring 27 against australia.
    Last edited by bagapath; 01-04-2009 at 11:39 PM.

  7. #37
    International Captain Howsie's Avatar
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    Brendon McCullum:

    Before he made that Hundred against India last week he had One against Bangladesh and Zimbabwae. His only ODI Century is against Ireland and his 158 in the IPL was against a piss poor 20/20 team. Still one of my favourite players though.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howsie View Post
    his 158 in the IPL was against a piss poor 20/20 team. Still one of my favourite players though.
    Uh...
    Praveen Kumar
    Zaheer Khan
    Ashley Noffke
    Jacques Kallis

    Rubbish bowling.

    (Cameron White did bowl an over)
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  9. #39
    SJS
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    One must also keep in mind that Zimbabwe were not minnows like Bangladesh have been right through their existence and Zimbabwe have become in recent times.

    Its very easy to see that those who played against Zimbabwe in their better days did not benefit hugely in terms of stats as those who played them later. Thats why I hesitate to include Zimbabwe as minnows till after Heath Streak left the team after the Delhi Test on 28th Feb 2002. Andy Flower left two Tests later. Their stats as a team are startlingly different before and since that Delhi Test match despite Heath Streak's heroic attempt to put the mess in order.

    Have a look.

    Before 1st March 2002

    Code:
    VS	Played	Won	Lost	Drawn
    
    AUS	1		1	
    BAN	4	3		1
    ENG	4		1	3
    IND	9	2	5	2
    NZL	11		5	6
    PAK	12	2	6	4
    SAF	7		6	1
    SRL	13		7	6
    WIN	5		3	2
    
    TOTAL	66	7	34	25
    Since 1st March 2002

    Code:
    VS	Played	Won	Lost	Drawn
    
    AUS	2		2	
    BAN	4	1	1	2
    ENG	2		2	
    IND	2		2	
    NZL	2		2	
    PAK	2		2	
    SAF	2		2	
    SRL	2		2	
    WIN	2		1	1
    
    TOTAL	20	1	16	3
    Zimbabwe was one of the most promising new comers to Test cricket and they had batsmen and bowlers in the ranking lists all the time.

    Their six wins included two each against India and Pakistan and they had a 3-0 record against the real minnows of the world, Bangladesh. Look at what they have done since.

    They had 25 draws in 66 Test matches and only one of them was against Bangladesh. They could, on their day stand up against all sides and did.

    There leading run scorers used to be
    • Andy Flower : 4655 runs at 52.3 with 12 centuries
    • David Houghton : 1464 at 43.1 with 4 centuries
    • Murray Goodwin : 1414 at 42.9 with 3 centuries
    • Guy Whittall : 2198 at 30.1 with 4 centuries
    • Grant Flower with nearly 3000 runs and 6 centuries.


    Since then we have just one major batsman in the 30's : Taibu with 1220 runs at under 25. Bowlers Andy Blignaut and Heath Streak (part of the earlier teams) are next in batting too with averages at 27+.

    Their bowlers used to have
    Heath Streak with 180 wickets at 26.99

    Today they have no one.

    Look care fully at the records of players against Zimbabwe at their peak and you will find they did not really benefit much as far as stats go.

    Now finally they are minnows. They weren't before. Mr Mughabe has given us at least two things, another Test Minnows side and a ten trilion dollar bill !

  10. #40
    State Regular Maximus0723's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJS View Post
    One must also keep in mind that Zimbabwe were not minnows like Bangladesh have been right through their existence and Zimbabwe have become in recent times.

    Its very easy to see that those who played against Zimbabwe in their better days did not benefit hugely in terms of stats as those who played them later. Thats why I hesitate to include Zimbabwe as minnows till after Heath Streak left the team after the Delhi Test on 28th Feb 2002. Andy Flower left two Tests later. Their stats as a team are startlingly different before and since that Delhi Test match despite Heath Streak's heroic attempt to put the mess in order.

    Have a look.

    Before 1st March 2002

    Code:
    VS	Played	Won	Lost	Drawn
    
    AUS	1		1	
    BAN	4	3		1
    ENG	4		1	3
    IND	9	2	5	2
    NZL	11		5	6
    PAK	12	2	6	4
    SAF	7		6	1
    SRL	13		7	6
    WIN	5		3	2
    
    TOTAL	66	7	34	25
    Since 1st March 2002

    Code:
    VS	Played	Won	Lost	Drawn
    
    AUS	2		2	
    BAN	4	1	1	2
    ENG	2		2	
    IND	2		2	
    NZL	2		2	
    PAK	2		2	
    SAF	2		2	
    SRL	2		2	
    WIN	2		1	1
    
    TOTAL	20	1	16	3
    Zimbabwe was one of the most promising new comers to Test cricket and they had batsmen and bowlers in the ranking lists all the time.

    Their six wins included two each against India and Pakistan and they had a 3-0 record against the real minnows of the world, Bangladesh. Look at what they have done since.

    They had 25 draws in 66 Test matches and only one of them was against Bangladesh. They could, on their day stand up against all sides and did.

    There leading run scorers used to be
    • Andy Flower : 4655 runs at 52.3 with 12 centuries
    • David Houghton : 1464 at 43.1 with 4 centuries
    • Murray Goodwin : 1414 at 42.9 with 3 centuries
    • Guy Whittall : 2198 at 30.1 with 4 centuries
    • Grant Flower with nearly 3000 runs and 6 centuries.


    Since then we have just one major batsman in the 30's : Taibu with 1220 runs at under 25. Bowlers Andy Blignaut and Heath Streak (part of the earlier teams) are next in batting too with averages at 27+.

    Their bowlers used to have
    Heath Streak with 180 wickets at 26.99

    Today they have no one.

    Look care fully at the records of players against Zimbabwe at their peak and you will find they did not really benefit much as far as stats go.

    Now finally they are minnows. They weren't before. Mr Mughabe has given us at least two things, another Test Minnows side and a ten trilion dollar bill !
    Thank you.

    Awesome job. I wanted to say this but couldn't.
    I believe same thing can be said about Kenya?

  11. #41
    Cricketer Of The Year The Sean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thierry henry View Post
    Including the minnow-bashing- kinda

    Excluding the minnow-bashing, his test career is somewhere close to pretty ******* horrible (esp with the ball)
    I figured someone might take issue with that, so I was careful to say "distinguished" rather than "outstanding" - I think nearly 300 Test wickets (even if helped substantially by minnows), over 3,000 Test runs, Test captaincy and a number of fine performances against even the stronger sides entitles him to be considered a more-than-decent Test cricketer. Certainly a class above someone like Irfan Pathan, who I was comparing him to in terms of minnow bashing.
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  12. #42
    SJS
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    How do we define a minnow?

    We generally agree that Bangladesh are minnows. They were minnows when they joined the Test ranks and have continued to be minnows. They have lost every single series they have played except when they beat a Mugabe-stricken Zimbabwe in early 2005. So we have our first undisputed Minnow.

    Then we come to Zimbabwe.
    • They joined Test ranks in 1992, drew their first test and the one test series against India.
    • Its not often realised that other than Australia who beat England in that very first Test ever in 1877, Zimbabwe is the only country not to lose their first Test match.
    • They went on to draw series against Sri Lanka (94-95), New Zealand in New Zealand (95-96), England (96-97), New Zealand (97-98), New Zealand (2000-01) and India (2000-01).
    • They were not winning too many Tests against established sides but were far from being white-washed even in the small series they played and kept putting up a good show.
    • They beat Bangladesh three times in a row and lost to them only when their own cricket was demolished by politics.
    • The most remarkable achievement of theirs was to actually win a couple of Test series from established Test nations. This was in 1998-99 when in successive series they beat India and Pakistan 1-0 each.


    Clearly, Zimbabwe were a decent side at least till the end of the season 2001-02. However since their wins came just in that one season lets include them as our second "minnow side" though they do have a case to be out of that criteria for at least a few years.

    So our list grows to two.

    1. Bangladesh (Beginning till date)
    2. Zimbabwe (Beginning till date)

    Now once we put them Zimbabwe of the turn of the millennium here, we really need to ask ourselves whether there have been/are other candidates for this even if it is for part of their existence. I removed the series with Zimbabwe and Bangladesh for all the other Test playing countries and looked for periods of as bad performances as the two minnows.

    One case that stood out is West Indies from(and including) the tour of England in 2000 till at least their tour of England in 2007. This is how they fared during these eight years.
    Code:
    
    	Played	Won	Lost	Drawn
    Series	73	7	48	18
    Tests	21	2	18	1
    The series they won were against India at home in 2001-02 (2-1) and against Sri Lanka, also at home, in 2002-03 (1-0)

    This is not a better record than Zimbabwe during their earlier period before politics took over.

    Since then they have played five series and drawn two of them (Sri Lanka and New Zealand), lost 2-1 to South Africa and 2-0 to Australia and now have beaten England at home.

    I would like to believe that maybe we will see better times ahead. Lets see.
    To be continued. . .

  13. #43
    Cricketer Of The Year zaremba's Avatar
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    Building on SJS's post, there have been times when I'd say England were pushing for Minnow status.

    Anyhow the answer to the question is, of course, Matthew "380" Hayden.

    Murali also bashed minnows pretty effectively but his record against others is outstanding in a way that Hayden's isn't.

    In my all-time World XI versus minnows, Hayden would be the first name on the team sheet.

  14. #44
    International Debutant Slifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJS View Post
    How do we define a minnow?

    We generally agree that Bangladesh are minnows. They were minnows when they joined the Test ranks and have continued to be minnows. They have lost every single series they have played except when they beat a Mugabe-stricken Zimbabwe in early 2005. So we have our first undisputed Minnow.

    Then we come to Zimbabwe.
    • They joined Test ranks in 1992, drew their first test and the one test series against India.
    • Its not often realised that other than Australia who beat England in that very first Test ever in 1877, Zimbabwe is the only country not to lose their first Test match.
    • They went on to draw series against Sri Lanka (94-95), New Zealand in New Zealand (95-96), England (96-97), New Zealand (97-98), New Zealand (2000-01) and India (2000-01).
    • They were not winning too many Tests against established sides but were far from being white-washed even in the small series they played and kept putting up a good show.
    • They beat Bangladesh three times in a row and lost to them only when their own cricket was demolished by politics.
    • The most remarkable achievement of theirs was to actually win a couple of Test series from established Test nations. This was in 1998-99 when in successive series they beat India and Pakistan 1-0 each.


    Clearly, Zimbabwe were a decent side at least till the end of the season 2001-02. However since their wins came just in that one season lets include them as our second "minnow side" though they do have a case to be out of that criteria for at least a few years.

    So our list grows to two.

    1. Bangladesh (Beginning till date)
    2. Zimbabwe (Beginning till date)

    Now once we put them Zimbabwe of the turn of the millennium here, we really need to ask ourselves whether there have been/are other candidates for this even if it is for part of their existence. I removed the series with Zimbabwe and Bangladesh for all the other Test playing countries and looked for periods of as bad performances as the two minnows.

    One case that stood out is West Indies from(and including) the tour of England in 2000 till at least their tour of England in 2007. This is how they fared during these eight years.
    Code:
    
    	Played	Won	Lost	Drawn
    Series	73	7	48	18
    Tests	21	2	18	1
    The series they won were against India at home in 2001-02 (2-1) and against Sri Lanka, also at home, in 2002-03 (1-0)

    This is not a better record than Zimbabwe during their earlier period before politics took over.

    Since then they have played five series and drawn two of them (Sri Lanka and New Zealand), lost 2-1 to South Africa and 2-0 to Australia and now have beaten England at home.

    I would like to believe that maybe we will see better times ahead. Lets see.
    To be continued. . .
    No doubt SJS, WI up until maybe last year were a minnow-esque
    Cause Slifer said so.........!!!!

  15. #45
    U19 12th Man steve132's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slifer View Post
    I usually damn players if they bash minnows but tend to go missing agaisnt the better teams (esp the very best) Thats y for example among the great WI bastmen Walcott and Weekes will always be a rung below Lara, Viv and Sobers for me. They did well against the lower teams (India at the time) and performed poorly against the better sides (Aust. and Eng) particularly in away tests. BTW please note that i never called India a minnow.
    Weekes maybe, but not Walcott, who scored 8 centuries in a span of 10 Tests against England and Australia in 1954 and 1955.

    Strangely enough, most observers (including Australian and English cricketers) considered Weekes to be the greatest of the W's, although his best performances were against the weakest teams of his era - New Zealand and India. I agree with your judgment that Sobers, Viv Richards and Lara were all greater batsmen.
    Last edited by steve132; 10-04-2009 at 11:30 PM. Reason: Typo correction

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