The Myths & The Truth

[fredfertang]

There does appear to be an element of truth in the tailenders bit - looking at the England series he appeared in you get this

1953/54 - 3 out of 4 were tailenders
1957 - 1 out of 5 was a tailender
1959/60 - 9 wickets all frontline batsmen/all rounders
1963 - 20 - all bar 2 frontline batsmen/all rounders (Fred Trueman would say just 1)
1966 - 20 - all bar 4 frontline batsmen (and all those 4 in the same test)
1967/68 - 13 - 4 tailenders (with apologies to Tony Lock and John Snow)
1969 - 11 - 2 tailenders
1973 - 2 tailenders out of 6
1973/74 - 3 tailenders out of 14

 

[Uppercut]

There does appear to be an element of truth in the tailenders bit - looking at the England series he appeared in you get this

1953/54 - 3 out of 4 were tailenders
1957 - 1 out of 5 was a tailender
1959/60 - 9 wickets all frontline batsmen/all rounders
1963 - 20 - all bar 2 frontline batsmen/all rounders (Fred Trueman would say just 1)
1966 - 20 - all bar 4 frontline batsmen (and all those 4 in the same test)
1967/68 - 13 - 4 tailenders (with apologies to Tony Lock and John Snow)
1969 - 11 - 2 tailenders
1973 - 2 tailenders out of 6
1973/74 - 3 tailenders out of 14

There's a quicker way- HowSTAT! Wickets by Batting Order Graph. 26% of his wickets were batting 8-11, which is indeed slightly lower than average. For comparison's sake:

McGrath: 25% tail-enders
Walsh: 31% tail-enders
Dev: 28%
Hadlee: 29%
Pollock: 29%

Have to admit I've never seen this particular argument used in Sobers' favour. He did indeed take less tail-end wickets than most, but the difference doesn't even warrant a mention. Besides, I don't think this kind of analysis is particularly useful. Cleaning up the tail is too important a part of bowling to be treated as "easy wickets".

 

[vic_orthdox]

Hmm, but its a different predicament with an all-rounder. You're more likely to only call on him if the tail is putting on a big partnership, you'd rather let the specialist bowlers deal with the tail as not to fatigue out a guy who you're hoping will score a lot of runs for you.

 

[Sanz]

To be fair to BS, no-one as yet, has answered these questions:

1."He used to bowl spin on pace friendly wickets & pace on spin friendly wickets".
2."He would hate to bowl to tailenders".(What percentage of lower order/tailender wickets did he take?)
3."He was a dangerous new-ball bowler"."(At what average & strike did he take top order wickets?)
.

This has been answered in the past, but Mr. Singh tends to look away every time someone attempts to answer some of these questions and comes up with these question once every year or few months.

Here is one instance when it was answered :-

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/1655015-post261.html

 

[BhupinderSingh]

"You Can't Handle the Truth"

Sys the person who considers even Botham & Japil as better allroounders than Imran.
No one has yet given any proper answer(evidence) of my questions.No quotes from those who played with him but just myths made by his fanboys.He took 31 wickets @ 50 in his first 30 tests,was pretty ordinary dor another one third of his career but a fine bowler rest of one third of his career.He was an allrounder fine but greatest allrounder ever? It surely has to be the biggest joke ever in the history of cricket.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Agree with all that.

Bhupinder, have you actually watched Sobers or formed the opinion that his bowling was mediocre/crap based on statistics etc.? Just out of curiosity.

Yes stats are of no importance when we're discussing Sobers' bowling & certainly become very important when it comes to Imran's batting(his not outs).Credit to Sobers based on a myth that he used to bowl spin on a pacer friendly wicket & medium pace on a spin friendly wicket but no credit to Imran who bowled pace for more than half of his career on wickets which are considered nightmare for a fast bowler,On wickets where even Dennis Lillee averaged 100.Double standards surely.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

This has been answered in the past, but Mr. Singh tends to look away every time someone attempts to answer some of these questions and comes up with these question once every year or few months.

Here is one instance when it was answered :-

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/1655015-post261.html

Not all of my questions have been properly answered there.Please highlight the answers.Theories can never be facts.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

because cricket is not about stats and you will do well to read my sig, which is by an international cricketer (albeit age group) from our very own forums and a MUCH better judge of how and where stats can and do go wrong in cricket..........

Stats along with variables are the best of rating players from the past rather than non-sense of some fanboys of a player.Simple stats can't always be right but with variables they can.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

There's a quicker way- HowSTAT! Wickets by Batting Order Graph. 26% of his wickets were batting 8-11, which is indeed slightly lower than average. For comparison's sake:

McGrath: 25% tail-enders
Walsh: 31% tail-enders
Dev: 28%
Hadlee: 29%
Pollock: 29%

Have to admit I've never seen this particular argument used in Sobers' favour. He did indeed take less tail-end wickets than most, but the difference doesn't even warrant a mention. Besides, I don't think this kind of analysis is particularly useful. Cleaning up the tail is too important a part of bowling to be treated as "easy wickets".

C_C was the first person to bring it up when I was having a discussion with him regarding Sobers.

 

[Furball]

Biased troll is biased.

 

[Furball]

Yes.stats are of no importance when we're discussing Sobers' bowling & certainly become very important when it comes to Imran's batting(his not outs).Credit to Sobers based on a myth that he used to bowl spin on a pacer friendly wicket & medium pace on a spin friendly wicket but no credit to Imran who bowled pace for more than half of his career on wickets which are considered nightmare for a fast bowler,On wickets where even Dennis Lillee averaged 100.Double standards surely.

If bowling on Pakistani pitches is so hard, why is Imran's away record significantly worse than his home record?

 

[BhupinderSingh]

If bowling on Pakistani pitches is so hard, why is Imran's away record significantly worse than his home record?

The question here is why Sobers getting extra credit for something similar & others don't?His away record is worse than his home record because he had no one to support him on tours.Abdul Qadir was the only reliabe partner he had when he has at his beat averaged 45 on tours.So,no support & the whole bowling load could be some of the reasons.

 

[Furball]

The question here is why Sobers getting extra credit for something similar & others don't?His away record is worse than his home record because he had no one to support him on tours.Abdul Qadir was the only reliabe partner he had when he has at his beat averaged 45 on tours.So,no support & the whole bowling load could be some of the reasons.

That makes absolutely no sense.

If Pakistani pitches were so bad, he'd have even less bowling support at home.

Stop trying to give Imran credit for something he doesn't deserve credit for.

 

[Top_Cat]

The question here is why Sobers getting extra credit for something similar & others don't?His away record is worse than his home record because he had no one to support him on tours.Abdul Qadir was the only reliabe partner he had when he has at his beat averaged 45 on tours.So,no support & the whole bowling load could be some of the reasons.

Just because the same bowling attack that killed at home struggled away, doesn't mean Imran had no support. They were the same bowlers, more or less. The only difference was........ they were playing away from home.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

That makes absolutely no sense.

If Pakistani pitches were so bad, he'd have even less bowling support at home.

Stop trying to give Imran credit for something he doesn't deserve credit for.

Its fair to give credit to Shane Warne for bowling on ono-friendly Australin conditions(many of his worshippers here do,even if you don't) but not Imran.What else double standards are?.BTW,I give full credit to both of them for bowling in non friendly conditions.Warne averages worse than his career average in matches where McGrath was not there.Support does matter a bit & it makes sense IMO.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Just because the same bowling attack that killed at home struggled away, doesn't mean Imran had no support. They were the same bowlers, more or less. The only difference was........ they were playing away from home.

Imran,s away record is just not as good at home,it isn't like he struggled outside Pakiside or didn't threaten batsmen.It definitely makes little difference in case of no support.Other bowlers not blowling well=no support.

 

[JBH001]

Sanz, thanks for that excerpt from SJS. I must have missed that. It answers all my questions and solidifies, in my mind, Sobers' place as the greatest all-rounder. It also further explains the high opinion he was held in by his contemporaries and all who saw him play.

BS, not all give extra credit to Warne for bowling on supposedly unfriendly Australian pitches. I, for one, don't buy that line of argument.

And, as I said in the other thread, discussion of pitches too often descends into sweeping generalisations.

 

[Sanz]

He took 31 wickets @ 50 in his first 30 tests,was pretty ordinary dor another one third of his career but a fine bowler rest of one third of his career.He was an allrounder fine but greatest allrounder ever? It surely has to be the biggest joke ever in the history of cricket.

Imran after 30 Tests had a bowling average of 30, Batting average of 25.83

Sobers after 30 test had a bowling average of 49.83 and Batting average of 59.90

So Statistically, by the 30th Test, Sobers was arguably the World's best batsman who could bowl spin, fast and field at any position, In comparison Imran could not claim any of that status based on mere statistics.

 

[Sanz]

That was just a favor to you, I am in no mood to waste my time on this argument again. You may continue with your usual diatribe against Sobers, If not, we will see you again in few months seeking truth about Sobers.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Imran after 30 Tests had a bowling average of 30, Batting average of 25.83

Sobers after 30 test had a bowling average of 49.83 and Batting average of 59.90

So Statistically, by the 30th Test, Sobers was arguably the World's best batsman who could bowl spin, fast and field at any position, In comparison Imran could not claim any of that status based on mere statistics.

The dicussion is about Sobers,whether he deserves to be called greatest allrounder ever based on his bowling record,not what Imran after 30 matches as Sobers is the one considered greatest allrounder by members of this forum,not Imran.And that post of SJS just says Sobers bowled opposite style to the conditions.All theories & myths.Words of someone who played with him for most his career could only be worth considering.Even if its true,it was his own decision as he was the captain & doesn't deserve any extra praise for it.