The best Indian side: India (2007-2011) vs India (2015-2022)

[subshakerz]

What’s with your hard on for Harby. The dude averaged nearly 40 for like 60 tests or something after his initial couple of great series. He was ****ing ****.

Sheesh I am not even a fan of Harby frankly. But I don't hate the player as some other posters do here. He was pretty ordinary for the first half of the 2000s but took over well once Kumble retired.

But yeah, he was a class away bowler for a spell from 2008 to 2011. His bowling in NZ in 2009 when it seemed he was curving the ball through the air was probably the best I have seen live by an Indian spinner away from home along with Ashwin in Melbourne.

Then in Kingsmead in 2010 when he and Zaheer ripped through SA for nothing. He seemed more dangerous in that series and NZ than anything I have seen from Jadeja. Posters claiming Jadeja is a better away bowler than Harbi when Jadeja has won zero games in SENA and only has a smattering of smash & grab performances obviously ignored Harbi's entire career. Ashwin at least has one series performance he can point to, though IMO that is not sufficient.

 

[subshakerz]

Jadeja's wickets in SA too. He didn't look like it'd be sustainable, but he made the impact.

You mean a single test when he took 6/138 and SA racked up 500? What impact?

 

[TheJediBrah]

2007 batting line up with 2021 bowling attack would be something pretty special

 

[Xix2565]

I did not. I said the impact of the bowling attack on winning overseas tests (compared to the batting) has been overrated. The far inferior attack of 2007-2011 managed almost as good overseas results. Because the batting is much worse.

I was responding to the below:

That line of logic doesn't even work though. You can't just blame the batting and ignore literally everything else in the games that were played. Doesn't fly with me.

 

[CricAddict]

Actually the weaker top order of 2016 compared to 2007 is compensated by a stronger lower order in Pant Jadeja and Ashwin. While Bhajji can bat, he was way too inconsistent. A lot of games were lost or drawn earlier due to the inefficacy of the lower order.

 

[subshakerz]

That line of logic doesn't even work though. You can't just blame the batting and ignore literally everything else in the games that were played. Doesn't fly with me.

Kohli's team played five series in Eng, SA and NZ, and they lost four, drew one. Either their batting is pretty bad in these conditions, or their bowling is overrated, or maybe its a bit of both.

 

[Xuhaib]

Kohli strong Australian record should count for something no team let alone a sub cont side goes there and doesn't get slaughtered let alone win only SA seemed to do well before they lost their greats due to retirements. Eng, Pak. Sl, NZ, Win all get hammered from Pillar to post.

 

[subshakerz]

Actually the weaker top order of 2016 compared to 2007 is compensated by a stronger lower order in Pant Jadeja and Ashwin. While Bhajji can bat, he was way too inconsistent. A lot of games were lost or drawn earlier due to the inefficacy of the lower order.

A stronger lower order can only compensate for a weaker top and middle order on paper.

Over the course of an actual series, it will be the stronger top 6 who will be scoring more runs overall IMO.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Kohli strong Australian record should count for something no team let alone a sub cont side goes there and doesn't get slaughtered let alone win only SA seemed to do well before they lost their greats due to retirements. Eng, Pak. Sl, NZ, Win all get hammered from Pillar to post.

Yeah back to back wins in Australia honestly is such a great achievement that it compensates entirely for a mixed record elsewhere. Pakistan haven't even drawn a test there in almost 30 years.

Also, not to sound like I'm making an excuse, but it took a crazy unllikely set of circumstances for India to come away from the recent Eng tour with only a draw.

 

[subshakerz]

Kohli strong Australian record should count for something no team let alone a sub cont side goes there and doesn't get slaughtered let alone win only SA seemed to do well before they lost their greats due to retirements. Eng, Pak. Sl, NZ, Win all get hammered from Pillar to post.

Yeah except the 2000s India team weren't slaughtered there, they had a draw and a narrow loss. In fact, I would say Kohli's side should thank that earlier team for being the first Asian side to get comfortable battling the Aussies at home which paved the way for their victory. The fear of touring Australia had gone by then.

 

[subshakerz]

Also, not to sound like I'm making an excuse, but it took a crazy unllikely set of circumstances for India to not come away from the recent Eng tour with only a draw.

Circumstances partially of that Indian team's making though, so bad karma comes around.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Circumstances partially of that Indian team's making though, so bad karma comes around.

Shastri ****ed it up but that doesn't really have anything to do with how good the team is.

 

[ankitj]

That side won in England and NZ and drew in SA. This side didn't accomplish that.

Neither England nor NZ were as strong then as they are now. Definitely NZ, you can argue England had just won an Ashes couple of seasons ago.

 

[Xix2565]

Kohli's team played five series in Eng, SA and NZ, and they lost four, drew one. Either their batting is pretty bad in these conditions, or their bowling is overrated, or maybe its a bit of both.

Again, this is completely ignoring that there are 2 teams in a match. Bit rich to pretend like it's all India's fault in this, for both sides being debated.

I'm still waiting for an actual post from you btw. You have a notorious habit of evading me on such matters.

 

[Calm_profit]

Kohli is just a rich man's Azharuddin who used to win series at home but having poor overseas series.

 

[subshakerz]

Neither England nor NZ were as strong then as they are now. Definitely NZ, you can argue England had just won an Ashes couple of seasons ago.

The 2018 and 2021 England teams were definitely weaker, India was favorites entering both series. This 2022 SA team were also weaker than the one India drew with in 2011.

NZ I agree were stronger in 2020 than in 2009.

 

[Xuhaib]

Yeah back to back wins in Australia honestly is such a great achievement that it compensates entirely for a mixed record elsewhere. Pakistan haven't even drawn a test there in almost 30 years.

Also, not to sound like I'm making an excuse, but it took a crazy unllikely set of circumstances for India to not come away from the recent Eng tour with only a draw.

Yes totally. India Aus tour performances really gets me jealous as a Pakistani as tours to Australia have been like torture porn for us past two decades we desperately need a series like India had in 2003 for us break this jinx as the mental scarring has really made an Aus tour a forgone conclusion when go there.

 

[subshakerz]

Yes totally. India Aus tour performances really gets me jealous as a Pakistani as tours to Australia have been like torture porn for us past two decades we desperately need a series like India had in 2003 for us break this jinx as the mental scarring has really made an Aus tour a forgone conclusion when go there.

Pakistan was pretty competitive in Australia from 76 to 95 but that 99 tour whitewash began the jinx that has lasted till today. Its been miserable since then we cant even scrape a draw.

 

[h_hurricane]

Yeah except the 2000s India team weren't slaughtered there, they had a draw and a narrow loss. In fact, I would say Kohli's side should thank that earlier team for being the first Asian side to get comfortable battling the Aussies at home which paved the way for their victory. The fear of touring Australia had gone by then.

This is frankly unadulterated bull****. How about 2003 team thanking 1980-81 team for a draw then ? You are somehow trying to take credit away from each and every good achievement from current team to make them look worse than they are. They have flaws obviously, so had the teams of the past.

 

[subshakerz]

This is frankly unadulterated bull****. How about 2003 team thanking 1980-81 team for a draw then ? You are somehow trying to take credit away from each and every good achievement from current team to make them look worse than they are. They have flaws obviously, so had the teams of the past.

Calm down. The idea of breakthrough tours is not new, when a team is able to unexpectedly do well and overcome the fear factor of a legacy of doing poorly in a country for a long period and pave the road for future success.

Pakistan has several examples.

Pakistan had their breakthrough tour in 76 in Australia when Imran bowled the team to victory in a famous spell, drew the series and for 20 years, Pakistan was fairly competitive as they backed their bowlers to win games. In 99 IMO, the reverse happened, Pakistan were whitewashed despite getting close to a victory in Hobart but couldnt close the deal, and since then developed a mental barrier now against doing well in Australia, especially their bowlers.

In England in 1982, Pakistan narrowly lost the series but in many ways it was a breakthrough tour for the team, which ended up doing well for the next decade or so after that.

India in 2003 overcame the fear of batting as a unit in those conditions, which laid the groundwork for future teams to do well, especially for their batsmen.