The best Indian side: India (2007-2011) vs India (2015-2022)

[subshakerz]

Ridiculous even from you. I'm not exactly sure why vague feelings is still considered to be some sort of reasonable answer in such discussions.

Perhaps to be constructive you can actually state an argument or counter opinion rather than just post just whiny comments that add nothing to the discussion.

What do you disagree with?

Laxman, Sehwag, Tendulkar are great players of spin?

Kumble/Harbi will do well against Kohli's team in spin conditions?

Kohli's team is collapse prone in swinging conditions?

Zaheer was worldclass in that 2007-2011 phase outside home?

Kohli's team will win in Australia?

 

[Xix2565]

Perhaps to be constructive you can actually state an argument or counter opinion rather than just post just whiny comments that add nothing to the discussion.

What do you disagree with?

Laxman, Sehwag, Tendulkar are great players of spin?

Kumble/Harbi will do well against Kohli's team in spin conditions?

Kohli's team is collapse prone in swinging conditions?

Zaheer was worldclass in that 2007-2011 phase outside home?

Kohli's team will win in Australia?

Everything you suggested, because I'm not exactly a blind believer of your nonsensical arguments, let alone judgement of players through reputation alone. When someone like you refuses to actually try to make and support a deeper analysis I don't know why I have to sit here and just not question it.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Still not seeing why batting is being overrated and bowling is being underrated so much. You'll need more than basic big averages to convince me Tendu and co can reliably handle Ashwin/Jaddu and the pacers when they've struggled against good attacks before.

If anything the impact of India's bowling improvement has been very overrated in the last few years. Kohli and Shastri have been massively hyping this team's ability to take 20 wickets. Which to be fair is admirable, they're a very good attack. But what has it actually achieved in overseas tests. Apart from the two great wins in Australia, this team has done about as well/badly as the previous one.

 

[subshakerz]

If anything the impact of India's bowling improvement has been very overrated in the last few years. Kohli and Shastri have been massively hyping this team's ability to take 20 wickets. Which to be fair is admirable, they're a very good attack. But what has it actually achieved in overseas tests. Apart from the two great wins in Australia, this team has done about as well/badly as the previous one.

Actually you are short selling the previous Indian team which won in England and NZ and drew against a strong side in SA, beyond what this team has done. Zaheer and Harbi were very good in their overseas tours in these countries and won India key games.

 

[Xix2565]

If anything the impact of India's bowling improvement has been very overrated in the last few years. Kohli and Shastri have been massively hyping this team's ability to take 20 wickets. Which to be fair is admirable, they're a very good attack. But what has it actually achieved in overseas tests. Apart from the two great wins in Australia, this team has done about as well/badly as the previous one.

I mean what makes the previous side better or worse? Actually give something that is verifiable beyond these sort of wishy washy statements people love to hide behind. Things like match records, adjusted averages, etc.

You say the bowlers of modern India are overrated, show how so. Surely this is not beyond the likes of people here right?

 

[Flem274*]

india 2015-19 were a different beast to 2020-22 with the middle order in freefall, but anyway comes down to whether you value batting or bowling more imo.

if you splice these teams together you have the gist of a credible indian all time side.

 

[OverratedSanity]

You say the bowlers of modern India are overrated, show how so.

I did not. I said the impact of the bowling attack on winning overseas tests (compared to the batting) has been overrated. The far inferior attack of 2007-2011 managed almost as good overseas results. Because the batting is much worse.

I was responding to the below:

Nah this is a heavy overrating of batting prowess vs bowling prowess.

 

[Daemon]

Kohli’s India falls short on a few fronts

Standardised batting averages - The oldies come down a touch here but as per they are still a far superior batting side. Interestingly, they were actually better than the current side against pace more than spin. PM me if you need the numbers, can’t post here as it’s proprietary and will get picked up by one of our competitors.

Fielding - Not many good statistics here exist but this is one where you can rely on the eye test. But since it’s not objective enough as per certain requirements, we can ignore this.

Fast bowling - Pace bowling wise, it’s surprisingly close. Zaheer got top order batsmen out at a much higher frequency (12.6% higher!) than Bumrah does, after adjusting for the friendly pitches of today. Overall though you’ve got to give it to the new team.

Spin - We used a new metric called Degree Weighted Average for this, standardising averages against degrees of turn and extra cm of bounce in each test match. It clearly shows Ashwin and Jaddu had a ridiculous advantage, and that their averages would have skyrocketed to mid 30s in a different era. The oldies are a clear winner here.

Again, if you need to validate these feel free to hit me up for the numbers, they’ve been peer reviewed.

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah the gap between the two bowling sides is not as wide as Kohli team supporters are making it.

Zaheer in the period in question was world class in swinging conditions with quality returns in Eng and SA and decent returns in NZ and Aust.

Harbi/Kumble were much better away spinners than Ashwin/Jadeja. Check out Harbi's series in NZ and SA when he won they games.

Kohli's side had better 2nd and 3rd pacers but then which series did they win for India? They just cost India series in SA and Eng this year by not being able to bowl the opposition out.

 

[honestbharani]

If Harbhajan won tests in RSA and NZ he also lost us tests in India SL and WI. It's baseless factless bs as usual from saltshakerz.

 

[OverratedSanity]

There is absolutely no ****ing way you believe harbhajan was a better away spinner than ashwin or Jadeja. People seem determined to downplay Ashwin's border gavaskar series but I won't allow it. Miles more impactful than anything bhajji did.

 

[CricAddict]

Yeah the gap between the two bowling sides is not as wide as Kohli team supporters are making it.

Zaheer in the period in question was world class in swinging conditions with quality returns in Eng and SA and decent returns in NZ and Aust.

Harbi/Kumble were much better away spinners than Ashwin/Jadeja. Check out Harbi's series in NZ and SA when he won they games.

Kohli's side had better 2nd and 3rd pacers but then which series did they win for India? They just cost India series in SA and Eng this year by not being able to bowl the opposition out.

That side struggled to win away tests. This side struggles to win away series. Quite a difference.

 

[subshakerz]

That side struggled to win away tests. This side struggles to win away series. Quite a difference.

That side won in England and NZ and drew in SA. This side didn't accomplish that.

 

[subshakerz]

There is absolutely no ****ing way you believe harbhajan was a better away spinner than ashwin or Jadeja. People seem determined to downplay Ashwin's border gavaskar series but I won't allow it. Miles more impactful than anything bhajji did.

None of Ashwin, Jadeja or Harbi are good away bowlers overall. But Harbi at least has a couple of strong series performances in SA and NZ he can point to compared to Ashwin's terrific Aus series in 2021. Jadeja has none.

 

[subshakerz]

If Harbhajan won tests in RSA and NZ he also lost us tests in India SL and WI. It's baseless factless bs as usual from saltshakerz.

Harbi was pretty good in WI but yeah he sucked in SL though even there he won India a test in 2008.

 

[Xuhaib]

Yes bhajji is a level below Ash/Jadz even if you account for the fact that they have bowled on more supporting home tracks its Kumble who I reckon is equal to Ashwin/Jaddu.

 

[Prince EWS]

There is absolutely no ****ing way you believe harbhajan was a better away spinner than ashwin or Jadeja. People seem determined to downplay Ashwin's border gavaskar series but I won't allow it. Miles more impactful than anything bhajji did.

Jadeja's wickets in SA too. He didn't look like it'd be sustainable, but he made the impact.

 

[_00_deathscar]

What’s with your hard on for Harby. The dude averaged nearly 40 for like 60 tests or something after his initial couple of great series. He was ****ing ****.

 

[Prince EWS]

What’s with your hard on for Harby. The dude averaged nearly 40 for like 60 tests or something after his initial couple of great series. He was ****ing ****.

Pretty bowler to watch. Much more so than Ashwin, Jadeja or Kumble IMO. Intoxicates people, perhaps.

 

[Daemon]

Harbhajan also won us a series with the bat