Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
Simpson is a better cricketer than most on these lists when bowling, slip catching, and captaincy are considered. He also averaged 55.5 as an opener.
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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread
- Thread starter Red
- Start date
I wonder how many times this post has been made. Probably thousands.
kyear2
Cricketer Of The Year
Agreed.
JBMAC
State Captain
Really surprised at Colin Cowdrey not being in the top "Slippers". Was one of the best I have ever seen and believe(stand to be corrected) Greg Chappell took the mantle f
capt_Luffy
International Debutant
He is just after Smith in my list.
Line and Length
Cricketer Of The Year
When Simpson played for WA (a state well known for flies) he would catch flies out of mid-air as slips practice.
capt_Luffy
International Debutant
I mean, it's definitely your team; but even Kallis isn't making that; and that too after factoring his bowling and slip fielding..... Hutton and Gavaskar you could argue didn't constantly faced such home conditions; but I believe they faced better bowlers overall. I get that he brings a left arm-right arm combination as an opener and is more aggressive than the ones better than him..... But is it worth it?His record isn't perfect and he's not Kallis, but he's a decent option who thrived in more "normal" conditions. The older guys neither faced the conditions nor the level of competition.
Regardless of who's in the position, it's the weakest on the team, especially for what I'm looking for. So until Jaiswal get's there,
TheJediBrah
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Which was the style at the time
kyear2
Cricketer Of The Year
Someone mentioned it and I'll have to look it up to verify, but Sunny apparently averaged below 40 in every country away from home from 1980. He plundered the bad WI bowling of the 70's and everywhere during WSC.
Not saying he wasn't a bona fide AT great, just saying the better bowling thing wasn't as great as it sounds.
With regards to the pitches, when Sunny toured us while we possessed even the slightest semblance of a decent pace atatck , the only pitches he scored runs on was Port of Spain and Bourda, one spinning track and one absolutely dead one.
Transpose the two and we can speculate how their careers would have differed. Look at his scores at Kensington or Sabina.
All I'm saying is that openers, like spinners haven't had the greatest abundance of great performers post war, but while the spinner's stockpile has managed to push out two great spinners, since the fast guys took over in the 80's there's been a paucity of great openers. Possibly there's a correlation.
capt_Luffy
International Debutant
You don't count his first tour; let's remove that from the equation. In his is last tour he really struggled, only scored one notable knock; no point there. In his 2nd tour, he played 2 Tests in Port of Spain and 1 in Bourda; he scored a 66 in Kingston. I don't think it's really fair the way you paint his record in WI. He was absolutely amazing in his 2nd series; not as much as the first one, but he scored plenty against Holding and Roberts. And he did scored against the quartet in home; in what were not necessarily spin friendly pitches, when most others didn't.
kyear2
Cricketer Of The Year
He's definitely on the extended list, but none of the 10 chosen were anything less than brilliant.
Of the lesser revered names on the list, Hooper was in everyway the equal of Waugh, Richardson the best 3rd slip fielder I've ever seen. Look back at any bowling compilation from '84 onwards featuring the WI and you can't imagine what he was routinely pulling off.
Hammond, Simpson, Sobers were from multiple sources the epitome of brilliance in the cordon and definitely part of any top tier, multiple articles I've read with Sobers being directly compared to the other two as equals, I've also seen enough of him to believe it to be true. Chappell you yourself mentioned, Taylor was automatic, especially to Warne. Waugh and Ponting were special, Waugh probably being the best of the modern era, and made life so much easier for McGrath and co. Kallis wasn't the most spectacular (as with his batting), but got to everything and was better in the cordon than he was a bowler and just as impactful.
kyear2
Cricketer Of The Year
I specifically prefaced by saying he was great, I'm saying having SA as a home pitch is a different test, and from his record I'm not sure how he would have fared. Sunny preferred, much preferred slower pitches and legitimately struggled in the quicker ones. That doesn't take away from his legacy, it just helps to frame the comparison. He was definitely ahead of Smith, just not as far so as some believe.
Coronis
Cricketer Of The Year
I’d say he’s closer to the others ahead of him.
I have the big 4 openers at 2, 8, 9 and 11. Next one would probably be at ~25 at best tbh.
kyear2
Cricketer Of The Year
Of the ones ahead of him, the only one who even remotely came close to facing modern conditions and attacks was Hutton. But I know that means more to me than you.
capt_Luffy
International Debutant
Gavaskar??
Anyways, my Rankings to be precise for openers:
Grace - 2
Hobbs - 3
Gavaskar - 8
Hutton - 10
Sutcliffe - 14
Trumper (though mostly as MOB) - 16
Barry Richards - 28
Boycott - 37
Graeme Smith - 41
Simpson - 43
Greenidge - 47
Hayden - 49
Shrewsbury - 50
Arthur Morris - 55
Mitchell - 56
Lawry - 57
Sehwag - 59
Cook - 60
Ponsford - 64
Merchant - 67
Gooch - 68
Hanif - 72
Hunte- 74
Kirsten - 76
Turner- 85
Woodfull - 90
Maclaren - 94
Amiss- 95
Fredericks- 98
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kyear2
Cricketer Of The Year
Ahead of Gavaskar, yes.
I have Hobbs 4, Hutton 8, Sunny somewhere between 9 and 12 (those vary so very much) and Sutcliffe 16th.
OverratedSanity
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Graeme Smith really underperformed on his difficult home pitches even relative to other SA batsmen, He averaged 34 against competent bowling attacks at home and scored heavily in some really flat conditions away from home. I rate him highly but putting him anywhere near the top 4 openers is not really going to be justified even with some real selective stat digging. He was great, but elevating him to that status is really pushing it.
Hobbs/Hutton/Gavaskar/Sutcliffe are a level above the rest of the openers quite clearly imo. There's a pretty sizeable gap between them and whoever is 5th.
Hobbs/Hutton/Gavaskar/Sutcliffe are a level above the rest of the openers quite clearly imo. There's a pretty sizeable gap between them and whoever is 5th.
kyear2
Cricketer Of The Year
I don't dispute this, my argument is who did Hobbs or Sutcliffe face that was even comparable to that Australian unit, and did they ever see pitches like the ones he played on at home. Even Gavaskar didn't perform that well in those types of pitches, and for the vast majority of his career Hutton batted on pancakes, with limited pace opposition.
Yes they are better, also saying that what they faced were worlds apart.
capt_Luffy
International Debutant
Now that's an exaggeration if one ever existed. Hobbs played in some of the worst eras for batsmen in Test cricket; pre War the mean average was just over 25. Be it sticky dogs at home, honey pot wickets in Australia or the infamous matted wickets in South Africa. He was head and shoulders above his peers. Hutton faced an attack of Lindwall, Miller, Johnston and Toshack and WI early spinners. And Gavaskar by far has faced better bowlers and overall succeeded. 2000s was a relatively easy batting patch with flatter wickets and a drop in overall bowling quality. And while SA was tough to bat on; 34 isn't just enough imo.
OverratedSanity
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Even early 2000s SA had its fair share of flat tracks for the record. I remember lots of high scoring games and draws. They got much spicier post 07 or so?