Ranking the candidates for best fast/pace bowler ever: The Rankings thread

[harsh.ag]

It probably doesn't but the Aus baters played pace very well.

TIL the Barmy Army played pace very well.

 

[Slifer]

I hate to use the argument that Amby had to bowl to an atvg aussie team and McGrath didnt. Could use that same argument against any of the atg wi bowlers from the 80s but I think that's just cheap. And obviously pure speculation. What we do know is that across all teams McGrath was a lil more consistent than Amby but both are comfortably in the top 10 greatest fast bowlers of all time.

Another argument I hate is the one that McGrath was the only stand out paceman in the early 2000s. And that he was the only bowler that succeeded in the suddenly flat pitch era. That is literally true but that's only because most of his atg contemporaries retired at more or less the same time. Mcgrath's career overlapped enough with the likes of Donald, Wasim, Amby etc and at no point was he considered head and shoulders above any of them. If bowling conditions in the 90s were that much better than 2000s then his stats should be noticeably better but they aren't.

 

[trundler]

I hate to use the argument that Amby had to bowl to an atvg aussie team and McGrath didnt. Could use that same argument against any of the atg wi bowlers from the 80s but I think that's just cheap. And obviously pure speculation. What we do know is that across all teams McGrath was a lil more consistent than Amby but both are comfortably in the top 10 greatest fast bowlers of all time.

Another argument I hate is the one that McGrath was the only stand out paceman in the early 2000s. And that he was the only bowler that succeeded in the suddenly flat pitch era. That is literally true but that's only because most of his atg contemporaries retired at more or less the same time. Mcgrath's career overlapped enough with the likes of Donald, Wasim, Amby etc and at no point was he considered head and shoulders above any of them. If bowling conditions in the 90s were that much better than 2000s then his stats should be noticeably better but they aren't.

Agreed on the whole but the last part is only so as McGrath came around later than the others. Not like anyone can be head and shoulders better than all others at this level anyway.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I hate to use the argument that Amby had to bowl to an atvg aussie team and McGrath didnt. Could use that same argument against any of the atg wi bowlers from the 80s but I think that's just cheap. And obviously pure speculation. What we do know is that across all teams McGrath was a lil more consistent than Amby but both are comfortably in the top 10 greatest fast bowlers of all time.

Another argument I hate is the one that McGrath was the only stand out paceman in the early 2000s. And that he was the only bowler that succeeded in the suddenly flat pitch era. That is literally true but that's only because most of his atg contemporaries retired at more or less the same time. Mcgrath's career overlapped enough with the likes of Donald, Wasim, Amby etc and at no point was he considered head and shoulders above any of them. If bowling conditions in the 90s were that much better than 2000s then his stats should be noticeably better but they aren't.

Problem with this is it ignores the possibility that McGrath got better, which I think he definitely did post 2000. You can't just assume that he was the same bowler in 1996 as he was in 2005 and judge the stats based on that.

 

[smash84]

I hate to use the argument that Amby had to bowl to an atvg aussie team and McGrath didnt. Could use that same argument against any of the atg wi bowlers from the 80s but I think that's just cheap. And obviously pure speculation. What we do know is that across all teams McGrath was a lil more consistent than Amby but both are comfortably in the top 10 greatest fast bowlers of all time.

.

Quality of opposition matters surely? Or do you think wickets against Australia and Bangladesh count for the same? Nobody is penalizing McGrath for not bowling against his team. But Ambrose's record against Australia who were the best players of pace in that era counts for something.

 

[Slifer]

Problem with this is it ignores the possibility that McGrath got better, which I think he definitely did post 2000. You can't just assume that he was the same bowler in 1996 as he was in 2005 and judge the stats based on that.

Likewise, u can't assume that his great contemporaries from the 90s wouldn't have been just as good in the 2000s. I'm not saying u per se but many on CW seem to give McGrath extra points for being the only great in the 2000s.

 

[Slifer]

Quality of opposition matters surely? Or do you think wickets against Australia and Bangladesh count for the same? Nobody is penalizing McGrath for not bowling against his team. But Ambrose's record against Australia who were the best players of pace in that era counts for something.

If you looked at one of my earlier points, you'd see that I share your sentiments regarding Amby vs Australia.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Likewise, u can't assume that his great contemporaries from the 90s wouldn't have been just as good in the 2000s. I'm not saying u per se but many on CW seem to give McGrath extra points for being the only great in the 2000s.

I don't know about that but he deserves credit for it, more so because conditions almost certainly became more batting-friendly, not necessarily just because he better than his contemporaries

 

[a massive zebra]

Agreed on the whole but the last part is only so as McGrath came around later than the others. Not like anyone can be head and shoulders better than all others at this level anyway.

Unless your name is Don Bradman.

 

[Engle]

Amby and McGrath are so close to matching each other, that one would have to dig deeper to find separating characteristics to distinguish them.

Here's one that may be a differentiator : An average batsman may be able to throw the bat around at McGrath and connect for runs, if not disturb his rhythm. (and I'm not just talking Razzaq). But if he tried that with Amby, his wickets or his head would go flying.

 

[Slifer]

Amby and McGrath are so close to matching each other, that one would have to dig deeper to find separating characteristics to distinguish them.

Here's one that may be a differentiator : An average batsman may be able to throw the bat around at McGrath and connect for runs, if not disturb his rhythm. (and I'm not just talking Razzaq). But if he tried that with Amby, his wickets or his head would go flying.

Lol at the last sentence. So true.

 

[Migara]

Lol at the last sentence. So true.

On the other hand, Ambrose DID receive some bashings from top batsmen. I cannot recall McGrath receiving any, other than in exhibition matches, or other than from pinch hitters.

McGrath dissected ATG players better than Ambrose. That's why he is the top bowler for me. Marshall did the same, and was more ***y with his style.

 

[stephen]

I always found it funny when McGrath hit Pieterson in 06/07 when KP tried to sweep him.

 

[Slifer]

On the other hand, Ambrose DID receive some bashings from top batsmen. I cannot recall McGrath receiving any, other than in exhibition matches, or other than from pinch hitters.

McGrath dissected ATG players better than Ambrose. That's why he is the top bowler for me. Marshall did the same, and was more ***y with his style.

Ambrose hardly got hit around hence y his average and econ were so peerless. Imo he got hit around much less than McGrath. What atg players did McGrath dissect that Amby didn't?? Sachin? Amby hardly played against him. Lara ? No comment and u know y. On the other hand Amby regularly took apart the atg aussie teams. Outside of India there isn't a single team that McGrath succeeded against that Ambrose didn't.

 

[Coronis]

Ambrose hardly got hit around hence y his average and econ were so peerless. Imo he got hit around much less than McGrath. What atg players did McGrath dissect that Amby didn't?? Sachin? Amby hardly played against him. Lara ? No comment and u know y. On the other hand Amby regularly took apart the atg aussie teams. Outside of India there isn't a single team that McGrath succeeded against that Ambrose didn't.

So do you not want to give credit to McGrath for India or...?

 

[Slifer]

Yeah I thought I already did. In the grand scheme of things McGrath is slightly better than Ambrose because he was a little bit more consistent across teams. Nevertheless it's not an open and shut case. Ambrose will however, get extra brownie points for me because of what he did vs Australia and in Australia in particular. No other bowler of his time had the success he did vs that atg team and particularly in Australia. We credit Lara and sachin for their exploits vs oz. I'm just doing the right for Amby .

 

[ankitj]

Amby and McGrath are so close to matching each other, that one would have to dig deeper to find separating characteristics to distinguish them.

Here's one that may be a differentiator : An average batsman may be able to throw the bat around at McGrath and connect for runs, if not disturb his rhythm. (and I'm not just talking Razzaq). But if he tried that with Amby, his wickets or his head would go flying.

On most days I put Ambrose marginally ahead of McGrath. But I have to admit that there is a bit of mythical romanticism around Ambrose when we make statements like above. I think Ambrose has been smacked around at times too. I think Moin Khan did it once to good effect, so did Vinod Kambli in 1996 world cup IIRC.

 

[Borges]

On most days I put Ambrose marginally ahead of McGrath. But I have to admit that there is a bit of mythical romanticism around Ambrose when we make statements like above.

Without mythical romanticism, cricket loses a large portion of its innate charm. At least for me.
Hence, even if the head says Murali > Warne, the heart wins: Warne > Murali. Lara > Tendulkar. Steyn > McGrath etc.

 

[Slifer]

On most days I put Ambrose marginally ahead of McGrath. But I have to admit that there is a bit of mythical romanticism around Ambrose when we make statements like above. I think Ambrose has been smacked around at times too. I think Moin Khan did it once to good effect, so did Vinod Kambli in 1996 world cup IIRC.

And so did Basit Ali in sharjah in 94 I think. But those were freak once in a bluemoon occurrences. Ambrose was miserly in tests. I used to be astonished to see Ambrose's figures after certain innings: 20 overs 11 maidens 1 or 2 for something like 30. That's crazy.

 

[Adders]

I always found it funny when McGrath hit Pieterson in 06/07 when KP tried to sweep him.

When McGrath broke his ribs?......that wasn't a sweep, KP charged down the wicket and tried to pull him.

At 2:12