Ranking the candidates for best fast/pace bowler ever: The Rankings thread

[a massive zebra]

Didn't Ambrose rely on seam movement alongside bounce as his main weapon?

Absolutely he did. I'm sorry, but Bolo couldn't be more wrong here.

 

[trundler]

Absolutely he did. I'm sorry, but Bolo couldn't be more wrong here.

Hell I've read that Ambrose was to seam movement what Wasim was to swing.

 

[Slifer]

This arguement that stats dont matter is crap. Courtney Walsh is inferior to Malcolm Marshall because Marshall averaged 3 runs less, struck much faster and was more consistent around the globe. That's an all stat based assessment, where is the ambiguity???

 

[vcs]

 

[Slifer]

Love that video. For those nuts who thought Amby was one dimensional

 

[Engle]

Stats do matter, but not to the exclusion of all else

I recall reading a comparative study in The Cricketer mag, where the the author devises a stat called ' Effective Bowling Average '.
It amalgamates the Avg. with the SR by taking the Square Root of Avg. X SR.

His reasoning was that it is just as important to take wickets fast, cause this has a bearing on attaining victory within the limited time frame

 

[trundler]

Stats do matter, but not to the exclusion of all else

I recall reading a comparative study in The Cricketer mag, where the the author devises a stat called ' Effective Bowling Average '.
It amalgamates the Avg. with the SR by taking the Square Root of Avg. X SR.

His reasoning was that it is just as important to take wickets fast, cause this has a bearing on attaining victory within the limited time frame

Average already is a product of strike rate and economy rate.

 

[Bolo]

I don't know why I ever try to understand anything about bowlaing via YouTube. The process is always the same. Look at couple of video's. . Realise I'm watching something specifically edited to not be nothing like their typical bowling.

Google it. Get exactly opposite answers to my question.

Go back to YouTube. Try to refine what I'm looking for. Wade though potato quality, frame rates, angles and wrong video until I eventually get frustrated and give up, usually with more questions than I started with.

Let me try this a different way. When he moves the ball off the pitch, is this seam as we normally speak of it? If so, he might manage to get movement 25% of the time before the ball gets too old. How is it deviating the rest of the time?

 

[Burgey]

Where does Ambrose stand amoung the bowlers who used the fewest tricks? Holding, Garner, Ambrose, Walsh to some extent. Be tall, fast and get bounce. Other than length and going hulk, did any of these guys actively try to get the ball to talk?

I think you’re markedly under rating the ability to consistently put the ball in the right spots to the right batsmen at decent pace with subtle variations in movement.

Control is as much a skill as hooping it around corners. Ball only has to move half a bat width to take an edge or get someone through the gate/ lbw. Ambrose used to do it a lot.

McGrath’s hat trick is also a classic example.

 

[Starfighter]

I don't know why I ever try to understand anything about bowlaing via YouTube. The process is always the same. Look at couple of video's. . Realise I'm watching something specifically edited to not be nothing like their typical bowling.

Google it. Get exactly opposite answers to my question.

Go back to YouTube. Try to refine what I'm looking for. Wade though potato quality, frame rates, angles and wrong video until I eventually get frustrated and give up, usually with more questions than I started with.

Let me try this a different way. When he moves the ball off the pitch, is this seam as we normally speak of it? If so, he might manage to get movement 25% of the time before the ball gets too old. How is it deviating the rest of the time?

You seem to have very exacting standards as to the quality of footage you need to judge a player.

 

[Bolo]

I think you’re markedly under rating the ability to consistently put the ball in the right spots to the right batsmen at decent pace with subtle variations in movement.

Control is as much a skill as hooping it around corners. Ball only has to move half a bat width to take an edge or get someone through the gate/ lbw. Ambrose used to do it a lot.

McGrath’s hat trick is also a classic example.

I stated this as my memory of watching him live. Half the forum has told me I'm wrong. It's too long ago and I'm not sure. But if so many people are confident he kept the ball moving, someone must know how. I saw seam and what looked like 1 cutter amoungst many, many.wickets

 

[Bolo]

You seem to have very exacting standards as to the quality of footage you need to judge a player.

The most famous highlights are good quality. The footage is completely useless though. The more representative the footage, the worse the quality. I can't see if the bat has hit it or where it pitched. Not very exacting

 

[Burgey]

I stated this as my memory of watching him live. Half the forum has told me I'm wrong. It's too long ago and I'm not sure. But if so many people are confident he kept the ball moving, someone must know how. I saw seam and what looked like 1 cutter amoungst many, many.wickets

Fair enough. As other people have noted, Ambrose was very much a seam bowler in the McGrath mould. One thing I always found odd about him was he stopped bowling what was an excellent Yorker which he had when he first came on the scene. On his first tour of Australia he looked like the new Garner and hit a fair few poles with his Yorker, but then he basically stopped bowling it.

I suppose he just got blokes out bowling good length.

 

[Bolo]

Fair enough. As other people have noted, Ambrose was very much a seam bowler in the McGrath mould. One thing I always found odd about him was he stopped bowling what was an excellent Yorker which he had when he first came on the scene. On his first tour of Australia he looked like the new Garner and hit a fair few poles with his Yorker, but then he basically stopped bowling it.

I suppose he just got blokes out bowling good length.

I don't think the expected survival time against top seam is very high. I reckon he took a high proportion at the start of the innings and put it into lockdown waiting from r mistakws

 

[Slifer]

Fair enough. As other people have noted, Ambrose was very much a seam bowler in the McGrath mould. One thing I always found odd about him was he stopped bowling what was an excellent Yorker which he had when he first came on the scene. On his first tour of Australia he looked like the new Garner and hit a fair few poles with his Yorker, but then he basically stopped bowling it.

I suppose he just got blokes out bowling good length.

And garner never stopped yorking people which is why he probably ended up with a better sr than amby.

 

[stephen]

Ambrose didn't move the ball much. He intimidated and was relentless in targeting the top of off. But he only moved the ball half a bats width. I still waver between him and McGrath as to who I rate higher. They were both very similar - Ambrose sharper but McGrath more cunning.

 

[Logan]

I rate McGrath higher than Ambrose. He targeted the top batsmen of the opposition team and more often than not succeeded. Ambrose failed miserably against India which is a huge black spot in his career IMO.

 

[Slifer]

Tbh Ambrose's record vs India is not that serious because he more than made up for his supposed short comings with a peerless record against an atg ...Australia. But yeah, McGrath is probably slightly ever so slightly better. If u swapped each out for the other, there wouldn't be any discernable drop in quality imo.

 

[ankitj]

Yeah, India as an opposition doesn't offer a special challenge for fast bowlers like it does to spinners. So I would disregard that completely. India as a venue does however offer special challenge to fast bowlers but Ambrose unfortunately never played in India! He did however alright in Pakistan and Sri Lanka in total 6 tests he played there.

 

[smash84]

Very little to choose between Ambrose and McGrath and I would choose one over the other depending on the side of the bed that u would wake up on. Ambrose retired almost 20 years ago so memories aren't as fresh but my memories of him are bowling short of a length just outside off stump and getting that steep bounce that pushes the ball towards the batsmens chest making it very hard to do much. There would be variations of length and seam movement off that stock length of his which would result in getting the batsmen out. He had a really nasty bouncer too. I thought McGrath was better at mixing up the length. Ambrose was probably nastier because of his height and how awkward it got for the batsmen. McGrath's Yorker gets underrated I think, and Ambrose's bouncer probably. But I get the feeling that McGrath may have found it slightly harder to succeed against an ATG Australia which is why Ambrose has to be given so much credit. Of course it can't be held against McGrath that he didn't bowl to his own team mate but it bears remembering that it is often called out that Australia is the hardest place to bowl for foreign fast bowlers and Ambrose was a star on Australian pitches against some atvg batting line ups.