Ranking the candidates for best fast/pace bowler ever: The Rankings thread

[TheJediBrah]

Very little to choose between Ambrose and McGrath and I would choose one over the other depending on the side of the bed that u would wake up on. Ambrose retired almost 20 years ago so memories aren't as fresh but my memories of him are bowling short of a length just outside off stump and getting that steep bounce that pushes the ball towards the batsmens chest making it very hard to do much. There would be variations of length and seam movement off that stock length of his which would result in getting the batsmen out. He had a really nasty bouncer too. I thought McGrath was better at mixing up the length. Ambrose was probably nastier because of his height and how awkward it got for the batsmen. McGrath's Yorker gets underrated I think, and Ambrose's bouncer probably. But I get the feeling that McGrath may have found it slightly harder to succeed against an ATG Australia which is why Ambrose has to be given so much credit. Of course it can't be held against McGrath that he didn't bowl to his own team mate but it bears remembering that it is often called out that Australia is the hardest place to bowl for foreign fast bowlers and Ambrose was a star on Australian pitches against some atvg batting line ups.

I think the opposite. McGrath's most freakish talent was his ability to get out the oppositions best player(s) for fun. He would have had mad plans against all the Aus batsmen and it wouldn't have surprised me if he averaged 20 or less against them.

 

[vcs]

I still have no idea how McGrath took 6-50 against a pretty good batting lineup here, it was a complete road.

 

[trundler]

I think the opposite. McGrath's most freakish talent was his ability to get out the oppositions best player(s) for fun. He would have had mad plans against all the Aus batsmen and it wouldn't have surprised me if he averaged 20 or less against them.

It is rubbish speculation. Khan was a supreme fast medium swing bowler but he averaged 26 in England and 19 in Pak. England is probably the easiest country for a touring swing bowler. Look at Alderman. Yet Khan was better in Pakistan. Blanket statements like that don't work. You really cant speculate McGrath would have been worse against Australia when he owned every great bat he came across.

 

[smash84]

I think the opposite. McGrath's most freakish talent was his ability to get out the oppositions best player(s) for fun. He would have had mad plans against all the Aus batsmen and it wouldn't have surprised me if he averaged 20 or less against them.

I don't know about that. McGrath fared off worse against SA compared to other countries that he bowled to didn't he? So I am not too sure he would do so well against the aus batting line up

 

[smash84]

It is rubbish speculation. Khan was a supreme fast medium swing bowler but he averaged 26 in England and 19 in Pak. England is probably the easiest country for a touring swing bowler. Look at Alderman. Yet Khan was better in Pakistan. Blanket statements like that don't work. You really cant speculate McGrath would have been worse against Australia when he owned every great bat he came across.

Lol. I think you wanted to quote me .

 

[trundler]

Lol. I think you wanted to quote me .

Think so
And he still averaged only 24 against them. And Ambrose averaged high against India. Think we can just put these cases down to circumstances and such.

 

[smash84]

Can somebody please confirm McGrath's record against south Africa in Australia? Looks pretty ordinary by his lofty standards. I want to confirm that I am looking at the right numbers. Would probably help in supporting my hunch about him facing a formidable challenge if he faced the Aus batting line up.

 

[vcs]

I think McGrath would likely have owned Hayden. Ponting and Langer would have probably played him well and it would have been a good even contest.

Australia's lineup would definitely have been a tough challenge for him, all those guys were great players of quick bowling.

 

[Starfighter]

It is rubbish speculation. Khan was a supreme fast medium swing bowler but he averaged 26 in England and 19 in Pak. England is probably the easiest country for a touring swing bowler. Look at Alderman. Yet Khan was better in Pakistan. Blanket statements like that don't work. You really cant speculate McGrath would have been worse against Australia when he owned every great bat he came across.

The England is good-for-swing-bowlers thing doesn't explain Kapil's failure there as well. I do agree that speculating someone would fail against a certain opposition is a bit of a stab in the dark.

Also Imran was a bit sharper than fast-medium.

 

[smash84]

Think so
And he still averaged only 24 against them. And Ambrose averaged high against India. Think we can just put these cases down to circumstances and such.

I don't trust your numbers, especially after your wasim fiasco

 

[morgieb]

Can somebody please confirm McGrath's record against south Africa in Australia? Looks pretty ordinary by his lofty standards. I want to confirm that I am looking at the right numbers. Would probably help in supporting my hunch about him facing a formidable challenge if he faced the Aus batting line up.

Took 28 wickets @ 31.17, which isn't all that special yeah. I thought a lot of it was down to disproportionally playing South Africa when he wasn't in his prime, but it appears that was somewhat exaggerated.

 

[Starfighter]

Can somebody please confirm McGrath's record against south Africa in Australia? Looks pretty ordinary by his lofty standards. I want to confirm that I am looking at the right numbers. Would probably help in supporting my hunch about him facing a formidable challenge if he faced the Aus batting line up.

Splitting it that way doesn't really work. Donald averaged worse against Australia in South Africa than in Australia but I don't think it follows that he'd somehow fare worse against the South African batting.

 

[trundler]

I don't trust your numbers, especially after your wasim fiasco

Fair enough. 27 against SA, better than Ambrose against India which you can scroll up for.

 

[Starfighter]

I don't trust your numbers, especially after your wasim fiasco

You're talking about someone who called Ian Salisbury a seamer.

 

[trundler]

You're talking about someone who called Ian Salisbury a seamer.

I deserve this.

 

[smash84]

Took 28 wickets @ 31.17, which isn't all that special yeah. I thought a lot of it was down to disproportionally playing South Africa when he wasn't in his prime, but it appears that was somewhat exaggerated.

Thanks for confirming, trundler aka fake news peddler conjuring up more numbers to support his claims.

But the Aus played pace really well and McGrath would have run into trouble getting out the likes of mark and Steve waugh, Martyn, ponting, Gilchrist, Langer, Slater, Taylor cheaply time and time again. Fmd those players are some players of pace.

 

[smash84]

Splitting it that way doesn't really work. Donald averaged worse against Australia in South Africa than in Australia but I don't think it follows that he'd somehow fare worse against the South African batting.

It probably doesn't but the Aus baters I mentioned played pace very well. I can see a peak ponting take apart the best fast bowlers in history and McGrath would have been no exception. And Steve waugh would have really dueled it out against McGrath as well. McGrath would have found some success for sure given the champion that he was but Ambrose gets points for getting the Aus lineups out cheaply which McGrath doesn't. Of course it is conjecture that he would have not done as well against the Aus line up but evidence does suggest that he surely would have found it tougher to dismiss them as cheap as his overall career average

 

[Starfighter]

It probably doesn't but the Aus baters I mentioned played pace very well. I can see a peak ponting take apart the best fast bowlers in history and McGrath would have been no exception. And Steve waugh would have really dueled it out against McGrath as well. McGrath would have found some success for sure given the champion that he was but Ambrose gets points for getting the Aus lineups out cheaply which McGrath doesn't. Of course it is conjecture that he would have not done as well against the Aus line up but evidence does suggest that he surely would have found it tougher to dismiss them as cheap as his overall career average

I think you're overthinking the good-players-of-pace bit. There's different types of pace going around, and McGrath's the not-fast-but-accurate-with-seam-movement kind. The only two comparisons are Walsh and Ambrose, their careers don't overlap much. Nonetheless they did reasonably well against Australia in '96-'97 and '98 (Ambrose 22.8, Walsh 25.1), so I think McGrath could have succeeded against them similarly. The main difference I can see elsewhere would be the flatness of the early 00's Aus pitches. Yes Ponting faced Pollock well enough in '01 but that's one series and he didn't face him again until 05/06 when Pollock was comfortably over the hill. But there weren't any others of that type around.

 

[smash84]

I think you're overthinking the good-players-of-pace bit. There's different types of pace going around, and McGrath's the not-fast-but-accurate-with-seam-movement kind. The only two comparisons are Walsh and Ambrose, their careers don't overlap much. Nonetheless the did reasonably well against Australia in '96-'97 and '98 (Ambrose 22.8, Walsh 25.1), so I think McGrath could have succeeded against them similarly. The main difference I can see elsewhere would be the flatness of the early 00's Aus pitches.

I don't think I am overthinking this. It is a point to consider when analyzing 2 players of such high quality.

 

[TheJediBrah]

It probably doesn't but the Aus baters I mentioned played pace very well. I can see a peak ponting take apart the best fast bowlers in history and McGrath would have been no exception. And Steve waugh would have really dueled it out against McGrath as well. McGrath would have found some success for sure given the champion that he was but Ambrose gets points for getting the Aus lineups out cheaply which McGrath doesn't. Of course it is conjecture that he would have not done as well against the Aus line up but evidence does suggest that he surely would have found it tougher to dismiss them as cheap as his overall career average

I think he would have been.

Steve Waugh is the one guy who I can imagine McGrath struggling to dismiss cheaply.