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Placing our bets on "Test Cricket's Young Fab Four"

Which of these "Young Fabbies" will make it the biggest?


  • Total voters
    46
  • Poll closed .

watson

Banned
I liked Flem's piece: Why I will stop calling players talented: A discussion of terminology

Now I wouldn't mind him differentiating the terms 'BEST' and 'GREATEST' because more often than not people use 'best' when they mean 'greatest', or 'greatest' when they mean 'best'.

That said;

'Kohli is the best batsman of the 4 listed, but Root is more likely to end up being the greatest'.
 
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Dan

Hall of Fame Member
@ Dan

The only comeback you have to Maximas' arguments is that the sample size is too small to make any judgements about his away record just yet.
Well, that and the current standing of his away record having absolutely nothing to do with his potential.

If, however, he is always getting out for low scores overseas then it suggests a technical flaw in his game which would limit anyones assessment of his potential.
Not necessarily. He's played 8 overseas Tests; it may have correlated with a patch of bad form (and we can get into a circular argument about causation there), he may be a bit like Harmison and not like being away from gloomy old Yorkshire. Or he may have a technical issue, which at 23 isn't exactly unexpected. But he has 10+ years of career to fix that technical issue.

A technical flaw in and of itself doesn't reduce your potential; Phil Hughes has 26 FC tons before his 26th birthday with a technique full of holes. Where potential comes in is a) the ability to rectify the flaws that every batsman has, and b) the ability to bat to your limits and overcome the flaw.


In addition - if Root looked a million dollars in the nets and in his innings, but always conspired to get himself out for less than 30 runs and had an average of 17.5 what would you make of his potential then?

Edit - meet Jamie How by the way.
You're equating potential with results here, which is innately flawed. Graeme Hick had supreme ability -- all the potential in the world -- but he couldn't translate it into results. That doesn't diminish the potential he had. I mean, Michael Atherton had a better Test record, and I don't think anybody would argue Athers was of greater potential than Hick.

If Joe Root sucks overseas for 10 years, then we can say he was rubbish overseas and Kohli was better. But that has nothing at all to do with his potential -- just that it didn't turn into results.

In arguing that Kohli has greater potential/is better, you're making the exact same point -- Root averages 51 in Test cricket, Kohli 38. Potential is not results -- neither now, after 25ish Tests each, nor at the end of their careers.
 

Stace

First Class Debutant
Root averages 28 in his (8) away tests so far and Kohli also averaged 28 in his first 2 away series (7 tests), Smith averaged 27 (8 tests) and Williamson 30 (8 tests). This means absolutely nothing I know but I just love a stat.
 

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
Or he may have a technical issue, which at 23 isn't exactly unexpected. But he has 10+ years of career to fix that technical issue.
I struggle with that I really do. I tend to grant people more potential the less flaws in their game as a young player. Otherwise everyone has the same potential because everyone could overcome all of their flaws and improve. i get the feeling we judge and define potential differently. I am basically judging how many test career runs and career average they will end up with based on what I have seen so far using all of the information at hand.
Take Colin Munro - I could argue using your definition he has great potential. He is not at all phased by fast bowling and didn't flinch facing Steyn and Morkel and has terrific hand eye coordination per the definition of talent that Flem conceived of and you evidentially agree with by reposting his thread. However Colin has a lot of flaws, good lord does he have a lot of flaws, but what is to stop him from working with Martin Crowe and overcoming all of those issues? Why is his potential less than Joe Roots apart from the obvious that Colin is already 27. I honestly don't know how you would answer that - on the one hand you are saying it is by watching his technique in the nets, but then on the other hand you are saying if he has a flaw that you see in the nets that is ok because he can overcome that flaw - so how do you judge him in the nets if you aren't going to hold flaws against him?

My way of judging potential is
a) how many runs are you scoring in FC cricket as a youngster (which would heavily favour your man Hick)
b) how many runs you score upon your initial introduction to test cricket (1st 20 games) - tells you something about whether their technique can stand up to international bowling
c) How good you look (how few flaws you have).
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
Yeah I tend to agree with the scoring runs as a young player in first class cricket thing.

There are the veterans who will score mountains of first class runs once they figure out a certain game plan that works for them, but as a young player you haven't had that experience so you're either good enough or not.

There are a few exceptions either way but it's the most solid correlation IMO.
 

Stace

First Class Debutant
I struggle with that I really do. I tend to grant people more potential the less flaws in their game as a young player. Otherwise everyone has the same potential because everyone could overcome all of their flaws and improve. i get the feeling we judge and define potential differently. I am basically judging how many test career runs and career average they will end up with based on what I have seen so far using all of the information at hand.
Take Colin Munro - I could argue using your definition he has great potential. He is not at all phased by fast bowling and didn't flinch facing Steyn and Morkel and has terrific hand eye coordination per the definition of talent that Flem conceived of and you evidentially agree with by reposting his thread. However Colin has a lot of flaws, good lord does he have a lot of flaws, but what is to stop him from working with Martin Crowe and overcoming all of those issues? Why is his potential less than Joe Roots apart from the obvious that Colin is already 27. I honestly don't know how you would answer that - on the one hand you are saying it is by watching his technique in the nets, but then on the other hand you are saying if he has a flaw that you see in the nets that is ok because he can overcome that flaw - so how do you judge him in the nets if you aren't going to hold flaws against him?

My way of judging potential is
a) how many runs are you scoring in FC cricket as a youngster (which would heavily favour your man Hick)
b) how many runs you score upon your initial introduction to test cricket (1st 20 games) - tells you something about whether their technique can stand up to international bowling
c) How good you look (how few flaws you have).
So you think Root has more potential then Kohli? Root had a lot more test runs and a higher average after 20 test matches, a slightly better FC record, unless you have seen any flaws?
 

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
So you think Root has more potential then Kohli? Root had a lot more test runs and a higher average after 20 test matches, a slightly better FC record, unless you have seen any flaws?
Per my earlier post, yes, I have seen a flaw in Root's game. And I think Kohli is better, that said I didn't see much of the footage of Kohli in the recent test series as it was in the middle of the NZ night. Kohli's on drive takes my breath away.
 

Stace

First Class Debutant
Per my earlier post, yes, I have seen a flaw in Root's game. And I think Kohli is better, that said I didn't see much of the footage of Kohli in the recent test series as it was in the middle of the NZ night. Kohli's on drive takes my breath away.
Since the Ashes Root has made an effort to play forward more, he hasn't perfected it but he's improved and that's what this about, Kohli is the one with the biggest flaw at the moment as highlighted by Anderson.
 

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
Since the Ashes Root has made an effort to play forward more, he hasn't perfected it but he's improved and that's what this about, Kohli is the one with the biggest flaw at the moment as highlighted by Anderson.
And that comment is fine (I can't disagree with it as i didn't see much of the series) - I am not really here to debate that Kohli is better than Root btw
- or to claim that Root has a bad record overseas - I was just posting due to the emerging definition of "potential" in this thread and how to objectively judge potential.
 

Flem274*

123/5
More proven =/= more potential. End of, as far as I'm concerned.

Kohli having made an overseas ton does absolutely nothing to raise his ceiling, to use a Phlegm-ism. Root's won't suddenly raise once he makes an overseas ton. It might mean a lot about who's going to be a more successful Test batsman in actuality, but that isn't what potential is.
I liked Flem's piece: Why I will stop calling players talented: A discussion of terminology

Now I wouldn't mind him differentiating the terms 'BEST' and 'GREATEST' because more often than not people use 'best' when they mean 'greatest', or 'greatest' when they mean 'best'.

That said;

'Kohli is the best batsman of the 4 listed, but Root is more likely to end up being the greatest'.
A very simple land and turn exercise I did on Friday is making me revise that a lot, but it will still piss off traditional thinkers so I'm happy.

I also got bored halfway through reading my own post. That never happens.:(
 

Maximas

Cricketer Of The Year
I think my line of argument is being a little misrepresented here (or perhaps I didn't make myself clear), I don't think Root has any sort of deficiency in his game that will limit his potential, nor do I think the fact that he is yet to play a really good innings away from home also limits his potential. I was always simply trying to say that out of the 4 I find him the hardest to back at this stage because we haven't yet seen any solid evidence that he can stick it to good bowling attacks away from home, we've seen it from the rest. Now, this whole potential thing isn't affected by that but if I wanted to 'place my bet' on one of these guys as the thread asks me to to then I still think Root is not as safe a bet as the rest. Absolutely belongs in the discussion though and I suspect within 2 years he'll go on to score plenty of runs overseas I'll have changed my mind on him accordingly, but until then I'm reserving judgment and backing TPC
 

Flem274*

123/5
I struggle with that I really do. I tend to grant people more potential the less flaws in their game as a young player.
Yeah this makes sense to me. An 18 year old with few flaws to their game is streets ahead of a 25 year old who has only just gotten their act together because the 18 year old has a 7 year head start on being a complete player, so they're going to turn up at the top level earlier and start scoring runs or taking wickets earlier.
Otherwise everyone has the same potential because everyone could overcome all of their flaws and improve.
To me, this is sort of true and sort of not. I'll admit I refuse to believe some people will never be X, Y or Z because I have to but I think I have a good argument to back it up. When you get a bunch of beginners to play a sport or build a house or whatever, some are just so much faster on the uptake than others. Some people get something after 3 goes. Others take 30. Mark Richardson was a left arm spinner and piddly tailender. He's one of NZs best opening batsmen. Shane Bond was a dobber. One of the best quicks. Craig Cumming a Cantabrian childhood prodigy. No more than a domestic stalwart. Ryan Harris was in the Bond boat, and now he's the number two fast bowler in the world. It would have been very easy for Richardson, Bond and Harris to settle for their lot and believe they didn't have the ability to change, because that's the narrative we get fed in every endeavour you can name. Sportsmen, poets, artists, mathematicians and more are almost predestined to be what they are. If that was true though, why do so many buck the trend?

Don't get me wrong, I'm in no doubt every person has a leg up over others in a few areas due to genetics or whatever but the slow and unfashionable road works too. I suspect it just requires a passionate and committed person to have the right mix of self awareness and delusion.
i get the feeling we judge and define potential differently. I am basically judging how many test career runs and career average they will end up with based on what I have seen so far using all of the information at hand.
Yeah this is fair.
Take Colin Munro - I could argue using your definition he has great potential. He is not at all phased by fast bowling and didn't flinch facing Steyn and Morkel and has terrific hand eye coordination per the definition of talent that Flem conceived of and you evidentially agree with by reposting his thread. However Colin has a lot of flaws, good lord does he have a lot of flaws, but what is to stop him from working with Martin Crowe and overcoming all of those issues? Why is his potential less than Joe Roots apart from the obvious that Colin is already 27. I honestly don't know how you would answer that - on the one hand you are saying it is by watching his technique in the nets, but then on the other hand you are saying if he has a flaw that you see in the nets that is ok because he can overcome that flaw - so how do you judge him in the nets if you aren't going to hold flaws against him?
I really wish Lord Colin chose to be a batsman earlier, and not a club cricket medium pacer. Incidentally Colin Munro has had to improve bucketloads to get to where he is now from where he was. He only looks like a raw kid because where he came from was even further back. He's an interesting case because he always had the ability become a good batsman fast but never realised what he was until very late.

It's really really hard to change habits though, and is probably too late for him and this is where I'll revise a few of my ideas from our previous yarns Cane. I think if Colin Munro decided to build himself a good technique at 10 years old he would be a good player today, or have given himself the best chance to be one anyway. When you've been doing something, anything, one way your entire life though it becomes instinctual and at the top level you don't have time to consciously think about what you're doing and to make things even harder, when you're in the moment and the adrenaline is flowing and you can't really think straight your body will do what it knows and not what you're retraining it to do. This is why I have massive respect for Ross Taylor, BJ Watling, Steve Smith, Phil Hughes and anyone who is brave enough to make those changes after years of being a different batsman and while still competing at the top level. At the risk of sounding like Justin Langer, you can't see ball, think, then hit ball. You don't have time. You have to see the ball and hit the ball and while you wanted to hit it one way your body has taken over and tried to hit it the normal way.
 
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Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
@Maximas - I didn't see myself as putting words in your mouth, or making an argument for you. I just DTWA'd with some of Dan's responses to you for different reasons than you had put forward.
 

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
Yeah this makes sense to me. An 18 year old with few flaws to their game is streets ahead of a 25 year old who has only just gotten their act together because the 18 year old has a 7 year head start on being a complete player, so they're going to turn up at the top level earlier and start scoring runs or taking wickets earlier.

To me, this is sort of true and sort of not. I'll admit I refuse to believe some people will never be X, Y or Z because I have to but I think I have a good argument to back it up. When you get a bunch of beginners to play a sport or build a house or whatever, some are just so much faster on the uptake than others. Some people get something after 3 goes. Others take 30. Mark Richardson was a left arm spinner and piddly tailender. He's one of NZs best opening batsmen. Shane Bond was a dobber. One of the best quicks. Craig Cumming a Cantabrian childhood prodigy. No more than a domestic stalwart. Ryan Harris was in the Bond boat, and now he's the number two fast bowler in the world. It would have been very easy for Richardson, Bond and Harris to settle for their lot and believe they didn't have the ability to change, because that's the narrative we get fed in every endeavour you can name. Sportsmen, poets, artists, mathematicians and more are almost predestined to be what they are. If that was true though, why do so many buck the trend?

Don't get me wrong, I'm in no doubt every person has a leg up over others in a few areas due to genetics or whatever but the slow and unfashionable road works too. I suspect it just requires a passionate and committed person to have the right mix of self awareness and delusion.

Yeah this is fair.

I really wish Lord Colin chose to be a batsman earlier, and not a club cricket medium pacer. Incidentally Colin Munro has had to improve bucketloads to get to where he is now from where he was. He only looks like a raw kid because where he came from was even further back. He's an interesting case because he always had the ability become a good batsman fast but never realised what he was until very late.

It's really really hard to change habits though, and is probably too late for him and this is where I'll revise a few of my ideas from our previous yarns Cane. I think if Colin Munro decided to build himself a good technique at 10 years old he would be a good player today, or have given himself the best chance to be one anyway. When you've been doing something, anything, one way your entire life though it becomes instinctual and at the top level you don't have time to consciously think about what you're doing and to make things even harder, when you're in the moment and the adrenaline is flowing and you can't really think straight your body will do what it knows and not what you're retraining it to do. This is why I have massive respect for Ross Taylor, BJ Watling, Steve Smith, Phil Hughes and anyone who is brave enough to make those changes after years of being a different batsman and while still competing at the top level. At the risk of sounding like Justin Langer, you can't see ball, think, then hit ball. You don't have time. You have to see the ball and hit the ball and while you wanted to hit it one way your body has taken over and tried to hit it the normal way.
Great post. Always interested in any arguments you want to put forward. There is nothing really there for me to disagree with. Only point of interest is Mark Richardson who seemed to have reached his potential in the minds of most people early in his career but he just went to a whole new level.

When watching Munro he really did have enough time to hit the ball against 145Kmh bowling while CDG simply didn't. So yes if he had've received better coaching at a young age, or if he just had've been one of the lucky ones like Kane who was born with a Father who spent hours and hours training him then Colin's career could have been much different. Strangely though the thing I judged Munro on when I first saw him in an HRV game wasn't his technique it was that the ball was hitting his bat rather than him hitting the ball, and that is something that a tail ender does. And now based on what we know about his humble beginnings that all makes sense. He improved so quickly though and the player I saw in that HRV game was not the same guy who smacked the bangers around in a T20 game some years later.
 

Howsie

International Captain
So you think Root has more potential then Kohli? Root had a lot more test runs and a higher average after 20 test matches, a slightly better FC record, unless you have seen any flaws?
If Root was as good as his average suggested he'd still be batting up the order. As it is he's been shunted down the batting line up and England are having to play a scrub like Sam Robson. Likewise Steve Smith to a degree. No reason whatsoever why he shouldn't be batting at three for Australia.
 

Adders

Cricketer Of The Year
If Root was as good as his average suggested he'd still be batting up the order. As it is he's been shunted down the batting line up and England are having to play a scrub like Sam Robson. Likewise Steve Smith to a degree. No reason whatsoever why he shouldn't be batting at three for Australia.
Couldn't disagree with this more tbh........some players are just better suited to the middle order. Batting at 4, 5 or 6 does not necessarily mean you are an inferior batsmen to the guy's at 1, 2 and 3. I'd like to see you sell this argument to such notables as Lara, Sachin and Border et al to name just a few.

Moving Root up the order was one of the biggest mistakes (among many) that England have made this last year or so.........and it has nothing to do with the quality of him as a batsmen.
 

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