*Official* English Football Season 2012-13

[sledger]

But I suppose I'd probably have to admit that "he's good at keeping the ball, his pass completion is 95%" is at least marginally better than "he's good at keeping the ball because I say so". Better crappy data than none.

You might say this demonstrates the fact that "keeping the ball" is in itself a fairly meaningless concept. A defender who only ever passes the ball back to the goalkeeper could quite conceivably be considered the best player in the world at keeping the ball, on this basis. It might even be true, but it's a fairly worthless accolade.

A more useful way of thinking about this sort of thing would be: "doesn't give the ball away stupidly or recklessly", which definitely cannot be inferred from stats.

 

[sledger]

If you really do insist then you could at least do it yourself when you use terms such as 'world class passer.'

I wouldn't hold your breath, my request for an explanation of what was meant by "an excellent recycler of possession" fell on deaf ears.

 

[Ikki]

Haha what. Passing at a world-class level is what Xabi Alonso and Xavi do. At best Allen passes at the level of a 2007 Michael Carrick.

Those two, actually three, players are more creative with their passing. What I am referring to is keeping the ball. Allen is as good as basically anyone I've seen in the EPL at popping up in very tight spaces and circulating the ball. He is a very accurate passer. The point re the stat was to show that Allen, who usually has the prime role to play at helping us keep possession, was very crap. You can state it but the numerical difference in percentages for me paints a clearer picture.

Speaking of footballing stats, the term "key pass" seems like it's being used more and more but I've never really followed up on what it refers to. Is a key pass another name for "chance creation", meaning it would get upgraded to an assist if the bloke on the end of it scored, or is it something else?

Yes, basically they're interchangeable from what I gather.

Nah this definitely isn't true. Possession and creativity are both important, and stats are a crude way of showing either. But I suppose I'd probably have to admit that "he's good at keeping the ball, his pass completion is 95%" is at least marginally better than "he's good at keeping the ball because I say so". Better crappy data than none.

Yes, this is my take on it too. Stats, especially in football, can be notoriously misleading. But if you qualify it with context then it can be very helpful.

lol qualifying. Its a flippant post on an internet forum why the **** would I need to qualify it?

If you really do insist then you could at least do it yourself when you use terms such as 'world class passer.'

The reason 'maestro' needs qualifying is that passing for volume and possession's sake is different to passing in order to create chances. You can be a maestro/master of either (or rarer still both) really.

Anyone who has really seen/knows of Allen's play should know I am not confusing him with a Mata or a Cazorla.

I wouldn't hold your breath, my request for an explanation of what was meant by "an excellent recycler of possession" fell on deaf ears.

When was this? An excellent recycler of possession is basically what I wrote in the above for Allen. It is someone that is able to collect the ball in a phase of play where the potential to lose it is ripe (lack of space, options, or the existence of pressing) and to convert that into a phase where your team has the ball again comfortably and can reset/recycle the play.

 

[Pothas]

The reason 'maestro' needs qualifying is that passing for volume and possession's sake is different to passing in order to create chances. You can be a maestro/master of either (or rarely both) really.

Anyone who has really seen/knows of Allen's play should know I am not confusing him with a Mata or a Cazorla.

Yeah I an quite aware of this, I do watch football.

The word maestro needs a fair bit less qualifying than 'world class.'

As for Allen, I don't mind him, think he is a decent player but the way you describe him maes him sound like Sergio Busquets.

 

[Ikki]

This is what I said:

The thing with Allen is that he is usually amongst the most accurate passers...anywhere. He usually passes within the 90+% range and in the Southampton game passed at 65% which is woeful. It correlates with just how not in control we were and it was only when Lucas came on that we got a foothold in the game.

How in the bloody hell does that exaggerate him? It's a factual statement with pretty little subjectivity. Allen usually passes at around 50-60 passes a game and in the 90% range. I don't care who you are, that is in the top echelon of possession-passers in the holding midfield position. The only way I can see someone being upset is if I compared him to a more creative passer - again, like a Mata or a Cazorla - but it is clear, and should be, that isn't the case.

 

[sledger]

You're being totally disingenuous. You said a few posts ago that he was genuinely world class. I should have thought that from that alone, it's fairly easy to see how you might be accused of exaggeration.

I mean, let's think about it. It's Joe Allen. He's played less than two full seasons in the top flight. Has never won anything of any note, at any level. His performances this year have been average, not at all standout, in a very average side. None of this precludes him from being world class, but you're going to have to do better to justify your claim than just banging on about pass completion rates which mean nothing. Surely even you can see how suggesting a player of his stature is somehow "World Class" might sound somewhat incredulous.

 

[Pothas]

What's an 'a Mata' or an 'a Cazorla' just say Mata or Cazorla for ****s sake.

You are still saying he is one of the very best in that position right? So therefore making him sound somewhat like Busquets.

 

[Ikki]

You're being totally disingenuous. You said a few posts ago that he was genuinely world class. I should have thought that from that alone, it's fairly easy to see how you might be accused of exaggeration.

No, I'm not. That post comes after the initial replies to the post of mine which I just quoted. So if you had a problem with the initial post, where is it? It's just bull**** whinging about stats.

And, secondly, I think a lot of players have world class facets to their game - like Allen and his ability to keep possession - so how should that translate into me saying he is Busquets? Likewise, I think for the same ability Arteta is world class, would you agree? It doesn't mean I think he is amongst the best midfielders in the world.

What's an 'a Mata' or an 'a Cazorla' just say Mata or Cazorla for ****s sake.

You are still saying he is one of the very best in that position right? So therefore making him sound somewhat like Busquets.

The point is a player like Cazorla or Mata (creative passers)...not Cazorla or Mata specifically.

And no, I said in terms of accuracy in passing he is world class in his position/role. That doesn't mean he is one of the best in the world at his position/role.

 

[Pothas]

Then say they are like them then. I know nearly every football pundit uses the 'a' thing, it is just a personal hatred of mine.

 

[sledger]

No, I'm not. That post comes after the initial replies to the post of mine which I just quoted. So if you had a problem with the initial post, where is it? It's just bull**** whinging about stats.

Ah yes, accuse others of bull**** whinging, a convenient Ikki way of bypassing difficult questions raised about an earlier point.

 

[Cevno]

Don't get why Rodgers plays Allen as the most advanced of the 3 midfielders many a times. He doesn't give much at all in that role despite his pass retention stats in terms of creativity.

And when he plays in a 2 man midfield his main forte short passing, doesn't stay at the same standard. He is a Ok player but someone who facilitates others in a certain system and looks worse when the team is doing badly and looks better when others are doing well.

 

[Uppercut]

I suppose this has to be true really but I always see football as the most subjective of sports, is certainly the way I like to watch and discuss it.

Not to say I don't enjoy analysis of any kind but always find team tactics and approaches an awful lot more interesting than any individual stats.

I think they can add something when they're not being used in a "who's better?" argument. I remember Michael Cox comparing the styles of a couple of defenders, talking about how one instinctively dropped off and the other looked to attack the ball. So the first blocked far more shots per game, but the second won far more tackles. It was quite insightful. But they're abused so often it's easy to forget that they can be interesting.

 

[Nate]

Don't get why Rodgers plays Allen as the most advanced of the 3 midfielders many a times.

That basically never happens.

 

[Cevno]

That basically never happens.

Played there against United and most times he started with Gerrard and Lucas earlier on in the season.

Who else plays as the most advanced of the 3 in that midfield ?

Edit - Might have happened less in the second half with Henderson gaining some form and with the signings of Sturridge and Coutinho giving more attacking options.

 

[Ikki]

Ah yes, accuse others of bull**** whinging, a convenient Ikki way of bypassing difficult questions raised about an earlier point.

Are you stupid or just acting stupid to get a reaction? I can't tell the difference anymore.

 

[Cevno]

Rodgers even used Sahin in that role, for which Sahin complained about recently after leaving because he wanted Lucas and Gerrard deeper.

 

[Ikki]

Rodgers hasn't played him there much at all, usually it is Suarez/Henderson there. But Rodgers does see Allen as more of a 'mediano' and thinks he can play further up, so who knows if he ends up trying that.

 

[sledger]

Are you stupid or just acting stupid to get a reaction? I can't tell the difference anymore.

I'll have to check my post completion rate before making any judgments about my posting ability. One moment.

 

[cpr]

Those two, actually three, players are more creative with their passing. What I am referring to is keeping the ball. Allen is as good as basically anyone I've seen in the EPL at popping up in very tight spaces and circulating the ball. He is a very accurate passer. The point re the stat was to show that Allen, who usually has the prime role to play at helping us keep possession, was very crap. You can state it but the numerical difference in percentages for me paints a clearer picture.

...

When was this? An excellent recycler of possession is basically what I wrote in the above for Allen. It is someone that is able to collect the ball in a phase of play where the potential to lose it is ripe (lack of space, options, or the existence of pressing) and to convert that into a phase where your team has the ball again comfortably and can reset/recycle the play.

So how much do you rate Fletcher for us then, because that's the job he does without being spectacular, and my personal opinion is he did it better than Allen does (not to mention the other facets, such as gettin in some decent tackles and actually scoring the odd key goal)

 

[Pothas]

Honestly I think most teams in La Liga and a good few in the Premiership have a player that can do Ikki describes as 'world class,' whatever he means by this. If you are a decent player who plays in a side that likes to keep possession then your passing stats are going to look pretty good.