*Official* English Football Season 2010-11

[Uppercut]

He only had a year left on his contract and told Werder Bremen that he wanted to leave, so that nulified any bargaining power they might have had.

Well yeah, but the point was that if he was happy to accept a move to several different clubs they would have been able to sell him to the highest bidder. Whereas really the choice was between selling him to Madrid and letting him go there for free in a year.

 

[Ikki]

Excellent Sid Lowe article about Benitez.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Excellent Sid Lowe article about Benitez.

Stopped reading it after three paragraphs.

Yea write an article like that with a new manager and new players against a Man City side that had one of its rare very good days. Using the word great in relation to a buffoon who won the odd trophy with an inherited squad and been useless thereafter.

Not fit for fish and chip paper, if indeed anyone bothered to print it.

 

[Furball]

Excellent Sid Lowe article about Benitez.

Loses all credibility when talking about his "good" signings - Pepe Reina, Xabi Alonso, Javier Mascherano and Fernando Torres. The following extract is complete and utter rubbish:

And what about Javier Mascherano, Pepe Reina and Xabi Alonso. What about Fernando Torres?

• That's hardly something to crow about. That's not many; they were obvious signings. Any idiot would buy Torres.

Any old idiot like Sir Alex Ferguson, who decided Torres wasn't worth the risk, for example? Mascherano wasn't a fixture at West Ham. Alonso was a kid at Real Sociedad. Reina had been forced out at Barcelona. Torres was a gamble. If he looks like such a sure thing now, it is testament to Benítez's vision -- and his coaching.

 

[vcs]

Sometimes I wonder whether Torres succeeded because of Benitez or despite him.. I mean, at times it seemed as if he was the only one keeping Benitez in a job. But it can't be healthy to put that kind of pressure on any one individual and Torres's fitness started cracking under the strain.

 

[Ikki]

Loses all credibility when talking about his "good" signings - Pepe Reina, Xabi Alonso, Javier Mascherano and Fernando Torres. The following extract is complete and utter rubbish:

How does it lose credibility? People talk about Benitez's good signings as if they were no-brainers. They certainly weren't. That's Sid's point.

 

[Ikki]

Sometimes I wonder whether Torres succeeded because of Benitez or despite him.. I mean, at times it seemed as if he was the only one keeping Benitez in a job. But it can't be healthy to put that kind of pressure on any one individual and Torres's fitness started cracking under the strain.

Well, Torres was nowhere near the same forward whilst at Atletico - much of that has to do with his team too. He himself has come out and gave Benitez a lot of credit for upping his game. When he came, people did think it was kind of a risk. Same with Gerrard: never a 20 goals a season player. Carra went from a solid utility player to one of the best CBs in England, if not Europe. Mascherano, too, not only credits Benitez for improving him as a player but, even, as a person.

 

[vcs]

Yeah Torres, Gerrard, Reina, Alonso and Carragher certainly improved under Benitez but one could argue they were entering their peak years anyway. I think overall Liverpool's defensive organization improved greatly under him, apart from last season. That was Benitez's main contribution, IMHO. As an attacking force, I don't think they ever looked fluid and consistently threatening except in short bursts here and there.

Like I said, too much reliance on Torres (and Gerrard) to carry the attack.. attacking as a team wasn't really his style.

About Mascherano, he's proven to be a disloyal prick and a bit of a mercenary so I'm not sure he's improved much as a person.

 

[Ikki]

The important thing to note is that they became different types of players under Benitez. Not that they necessarily just hit their peak.

The thing about him is that he is a much better coach than manager.

 

[Furball]

How does it lose credibility? People talk about Benitez's good signings as if they were no-brainers. They certainly weren't. That's Sid's point.

They were no brainers, it's not like he plucked any of them from utter obscurity and turned them into superb players.

Torres had a well established pedigree by the time he signed for Liverpool.
Reina might have been discarded by Barcelona, but Lowe is either unaware of, or has completely ignored, the fact that he'd established himself as an excellent keeper at Villareal.
Xabi Alonso had plenty of pedigree in Spain.
Javier Mascherano might not have been a regular at West Ham, but that was entirely down to how stupid the manager at the time was. Both Tevez and Mascherano joined West Ham with an excellent pedigree at international level and at club level in South America.

The article loses credibility because the argument about Benitez's good signings is complete nonsense.

 

[Ikki]

Puh-lease. Mascherano was rotting on the West Ham bench and whilst certainly a class player was not what he was later to become - the best holding/destructive midfield player in the world. Alonso had a very good season with Sociedad but was not a 30 million pound player - he almost joined Everton. Torres had oodles of talent but had regressed in the two years before joining us - which is a discussion in itself - and was certainly not one of the best forwards in the world. There was plenty of talk whether Benitez had risked too much on a player who wasn't known to consistently score 20 goals a season. No one would have predicted him scoring 33 goals in his first season and breaking all kinds of records. Reina was nowhere near one of the best keepers in the world, as he is now.

Revisionism at it's finest.

 

[vcs]

I detest Sam Allardyce.

 

[Furball]

Puh-lease. Mascherano was rotting on the West Ham bench and whilst certainly a class player was not what he was later to become - the best holding/destructive midfield player in the world. Alonso had a very good season with Sociedad but was not a 30 million pound player - he almost joined Everton. Torres had oodles of talent but had regressed in the two years before joining us - which is a discussion in itself - and was certainly not one of the best forwards in the world. There was plenty of talk whether Benitez had risked too much on a player who wasn't known to consistently score 20 goals a season. No one would have predicted him scoring 33 goals in his first season and breaking all kinds of records. Reina was nowhere near one of the best keepers in the world, as he is now.

Revisionism at it's finest.

Mascherano was rotting on the West Ham bench because their manager was an imbecile. He had Tevez rotting on the bench as well until he decided at the fag end of the season that Tevez might be worth giving a game. Guess what, he scored plenty of goals that kept West Ham up. Mascherano was a superb player, yes, he might have improved under Benitez, but that doesn't make his signing an inspired moment of genius. The same applies to Torres, Reina and Alonso - however much they might have improved under Benitez, they were all good players before arriving at Liverpool. None of the signings were "gambles, they were simply a case of Benitez signing good players.

The article is trying to claim precisely the opposite, that Benitez should be hailed as some sort of visionary for signing them - no, he shouldn't. If you want "gambles" or visionaries, then look at Wenger signing Fabregas when he was 15 or Sir Alex Ferguson signing an 18 year old Cristiano Ronaldo. They're cases where you can point to a manager having vision and gambling on an unknown. The aforementioned 4 Benitez signings are not.

 

[Ikki]

There's a difference between being a good player...and going on to become one of the best players in the world, in your position, as happened with those players. What the article is saying is that many of those buys were made to sound like no-brainers. As if we signed Kaka, Xavi and Buffon. Yet they were excellent buys because whilst being talented players (as good players naturally are) they weren't as well regarded and moved up a level with Benitez. Torres was probably the best known pre-Rafa and even he went up a level. The price we could fetch for Torres alone could play for these players.

I'm sorry though, I'll tell Sid Lowe, the best english speaking sports journalist covering La Liga, that you know better.

 

[sledger]

Shut up ****s

 

[BoyBrumby]

I detest Sam Allardyce.

Oh, the hilarity.

"I would be more suited to Inter Milan or Real Madrid. It wouldn't be a problem for me to manage those clubs because I would win the double or the league every time."

That's Sam "Six Months at Newcastle" Allardyce.

I think he genuinely believes it too.

 

[GIMH]

I'm with Ikki, tbh

And yeah, none of you hate Allardyce as much as I do but it's good to see it become more and more of a trend over the years

 

[Furball]

Oh, the hilarity.



That's Sam "Six Months at Newcastle" Allardyce.

I think he genuinely believes it too.

As much as I hate Allardyce, it's not really fair to hold his spell at Newcastle against him.

The guy who appointed him sold up almost immediately afterwards, Mike Ashley came in and ran the club like a spastic and they've got woeful fans.

 

[Furball]

There's a difference between being a good player...and going on to become one of the best players in the world, in your position, as happened with those players. What the article is saying is that many of those buys were made to sound like no-brainers. As if we signed Kaka, Xavi and Buffon. Yet they were excellent buys because whilst being talented players (as good players naturally are) they weren't as well regarded and moved up a level with Benitez. Torres was probably the best known pre-Rafa and even he went up a level. The price we could fetch for Torres alone could play for these players.

I'm sorry though, I'll tell Sid Lowe, the best english speaking sports journalist covering La Liga, that you know better.

Xabi Alonso had captained Real Sociedad to 2nd place in La Liga, won Spanish player of the year, and helped Sociedad qualify out of the Champions League group phases while Benitez was winning titles with Valencia - that's a classic case of a foreign manager coming in and signing a player who he knows extremely well despite him not being a household name. See Wenger signing Patrick Vieira for another example.

Sounds like we're arguing despite agreeing. I think it's a **** article because Sid Lowe is claiming that signing Torres was a gamble, which is a ridiculous thing to argue. I'm not arguing that Benitez didn't improve any of the players he signed.

 

[cpr]

As GF said, Alonso might not have been known here, but was definately known in Spain. Mascharano was an odd affair at West Ham, but considering we were seriously linked with him before that move, i dare say he was pretty well known too. Torres, well, his reputation was made at Athletico, anyone who argues he wasn't seen as one of the best strikers in Spain, indeed Europe i'd push, is a cretin.

Again, not saying they haven't improved having a manager who supported and encouraged them like Benitez, but its not like he spent £7.4m on a random kid through word of mouth type gamble.......