benchmark00
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So he caused the **** response, yet the **** response is to be blamed. Good logic.
At least you bois are consistent.
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Kallis vs Sobers, Donald vs Steyn, Trott vs Pollock
- Thread starter rza
- Start date
At least you bois are consistent.
uvelocity
International Coach
Marcuss made a strawman ftr.
No comment from yourself regarding my calling you out for your own personal attack on me either. Good form.
smash84
The Tiger King
So? Marcuss was being a dickhead and uvelocity came up with a funny retort to that. So start ranting @ uvelocity?
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
dwta.
uvelocity
International Coach
vic_orthdox
Global Moderator
Yes, but effect on a game does. Kallis continually has decent series' against Australia, but I think it says a lot that it was the time when Smith got runs that we lost a series against them.
Do you think Kallis makes the job of his partners any easier, than, say a Ponting or a Tendulkar?
HeathDavisSpeed
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Does he make it harder, in your opinion - more's the point.
Ruckus
International Captain
Yes imo. How many times have we seen a batsman take on bowlers, and suddenly the whole feeling of the game changes? The bowlers start feeling pressure and lose their lines, and the other batsmen starts looking more confident. Ponting's 78 at Headingly in 2009 is a great example of that.
Not saying that Kallis hasn't done that occasionally, but Ponting in his career has done it far more often.
Not saying that Kallis hasn't done that occasionally, but Ponting in his career has done it far more often.
marc71178
Eyes not spreadsheets
Kind of missing the point when you ignore the bowling side of things (which was the point I was trying to make).
Howe_zat
Audio File
Yeah, it is.
Completely agree. For what it's worth on the less-debated elements of the original post, Pollock RG was a true great of the game. Donald still beats Steyn - his average is a point lower isn't it?
Now... Kallis vs Sobers.
I'm a kiwi/Brit and have seen Kallis do well against NZ a few times. Saw him bowling in the World Cup in '99 when he was seriously quick and seriously good. But....
1. His minnow-bashing is absurd. 80 with the bat, 15 with the ball. It almost looks mean-spirited...
2. My perception is that there was a time when more than once, SA were well ahead but he never tried to accelerate at times when quick runs to set up a declaration were needed. It felt like getting his average over 50 was a huge thing for him. This is a few years back, I agree he's a more attacking player now. But still, you suspect Sobers wouldn't have known his batting average to the nearest five runs...
3. Sobers was a front-line bowler in over half his tests, Kallis was a fourth bowler. You can have a decent debate about which is the harder role. Sobers got a new ball quite often, fresh wicket sometimes. But the workload was much higher. Kallis got an older ball, occasionally set batsmen. But Kallis also often bowled a couple of overs, if nothing happened, he'd be off, and he also seems to have had a lot of days where he's got to knock over tail-enders (last week being the latest). A bad day for Kallis was none-for-forty, which has protected his average in some ways.
4. South Africa, I think we can all agree, have underperformed in the past 10 years. Given the players they've had, they should have won more test series, and they should have been a tougher opponent for Australia (especially at home). Kallis, possibly through no fault of his own, has been a big part of that, so I feel he'll never get the recognition he deserves because the side hasn't done as well as it should have.
5. Finally, Sir Gary was a true globetrotter. His image is of a guy who played for fun. He went on all sorts of "international xi" type tours, played for the Rest of the World, delighted county fans in his stints at Notts. (Yeah, I know he probably did this for money, just like everyone, but still, I can't imagine Kallis giving up his off-season break to go to Pakistan for two months on a tour.) He could drink most of us under the table then turn up at the ground and make a hundred. He bowled seam/swing, finger spin and wrist spin. He was a fantastic fielder. He made crazy declarations as captain. His batting was poetry in motion (possibly because he had that left-hander's natural grace?). Kallis, though technically sound with the bat, and occasionally menacing with the ball, and very good in the slips, just really never ever sets anyone's pulse racing.
I will always freely admit that Kallis's stats make him one of the top two to four allrounders ever (along with Sobers, Imran, and Miller for me, with Procter in a "maybe" category). But I don't think I could ever rate him as number one.
HeathDavisSpeed
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
The minnow-bashing is a complete red herring. He's #1 since 1989 with the bat if you exclude Minnows. Fair's fair - compare like with like, aye? And bowling, he still averages 35.
Now, on average Kallis bowls 12 overs per innings compared to Sobers' 22 per innings. Pretty clear that Sobers carried more bowling burden in numbers. Bloody hard to say how many were pace vs. spin with Sobers though.
Anyway, I personally don't disagree that Sobers is a better all-rounder than Kallis. But the comparison is warranted and far from ludicrous. The bigger question for me is where Kallis ranks in the post 1989 batsmen; and personally I think it's fair for him to be in the top bracket - Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting and Kallis. He isn't at all out of place. Whether he's as entertaining or whether he 'sets the pulse racing' is such a subjective way of looking at things. Put it this way, if Kallis had been around before 1989, his strike rate would have been bloody good.
Now, on average Kallis bowls 12 overs per innings compared to Sobers' 22 per innings. Pretty clear that Sobers carried more bowling burden in numbers. Bloody hard to say how many were pace vs. spin with Sobers though.
Anyway, I personally don't disagree that Sobers is a better all-rounder than Kallis. But the comparison is warranted and far from ludicrous. The bigger question for me is where Kallis ranks in the post 1989 batsmen; and personally I think it's fair for him to be in the top bracket - Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting and Kallis. He isn't at all out of place. Whether he's as entertaining or whether he 'sets the pulse racing' is such a subjective way of looking at things. Put it this way, if Kallis had been around before 1989, his strike rate would have been bloody good.
Jono
Virat Kohli (c)
Why would I not dare? He didn't aim it at me as I read it.
Jono wouldn't dare admit it, but that was a quality comeback.
Burgey
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There was a half back named Tim Smith played for Parra a few years back. Led the league in try assists, attacking kicks, defensive kicks. All the good stats for a play maker.
But he was no Andrew Johns.
Jono
Virat Kohli (c)
Stats aren't always a true reflection of who is better, but neither is the eye Burgey.
The No-Stats All-Star - NYTimes.com
The No-Stats All-Star - NYTimes.com
Burgey
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No indeed. There needs to be a mixture, less you end up comparing players who aren't of the same calibre.