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Ishant Sharma...overcoached?!

social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Hard to say that about someone who played in the manner in which he did against Ambrose, Walsh and Bishop in 96/97. I do think that his weaknesses against the short ball are exaggerated by many. One would think the WI would have no problems exposing those weaknesses down under of all places. Instead, his short ball weaknesses were supposedly exposed by Gough and Headley of all bowlers



If that was the case then he should have been dropped right after the 2003 world cup and not played as many games after that. The fact that they waited until he had a bad series before they could drop him suggests that they were looking for an excuse to drop him.
Bevan was hardly impressive against the Windies - he scratched around and certainly didnt play his natural game.

He was constantly checking his guard, wandering around the crease practicing his shots and ignoring his usual scoring opportunities - it was pretty painful to watch

IMO, the main thing that proved to me that mentally he didnt have it at test level was the fact that he got out to bouncers.

Put those same bowlers up against him in fc and he murdered them every day of the week. In tests, he went so far into his shell that he basically became shotless and got himself into all sorts of strange positions
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
That's because knowing every possible stat, calculated or descriptive, about a player doesn't necessarily tell you something you didn't already know about them. There's a pretty reasonable case that even batting averages, being an arithmetic mean, don't tell the full story anyway. For those of us who work in the actuarial fields, in the absence of proveably accurate measures of whatever it is you're trying to measure, getting a bunch of qualified or experienced people to make decisions about whatever it is turns out to be a pretty defensible methodology for finding solutions anyway. It obviously doesn't have the same checks and balances but generally-speaking, they get it right.

As for people here being better able to select an international team, that's a joke. Let's be serious about this; it's all too easy to Monday-morning quarterback team decisions but when you're actually in the position of having to do it and be accountible for your decisions, it would be far tougher than any of us imagine to get it right. And even then, just because a selected player fails, doesn't mean it was a poor decision; the players have to do their bit too. In terms of Australian teams, Andy Symonds, despite all the luck he's had, has turned out to be one of the better decisions even if it looked a bit iffy at the time. Picking Stuart Clark was an absolutely inspired move, Mike Hussey similar. What the selectors see (that none of us do) is a player's form in the nets, what other players are saying about them ("The deck the other day was a road but Stuey was hitting the gloves hard" or "Huss is nailing his cover drive these days"), how they're presenting themselves when put into pressure situations, etc. All of that probably turns out to be far more important in selection than anything you can mine from StatsGuru.
FWIW, tec has already said several things that I would in reply to this post: I'd just like to pick-out this:
And even then, just because a selected player fails, doesn't mean it was a poor decision; the players have to do their bit too. In terms of Australian teams, Andy Symonds, despite all the luck he's had, has turned out to be one of the better decisions even if it looked a bit iffy at the time.
I completely agree with the first sentence - a bad selection is a bad selection, and a good selection certainly doesn't always pay-off. But Andrew Symonds is not a good example - his first Test selection had precisely nothing going for it, and it failed. It was only later that his selection became somewhat understandable (and even then it was only done because of at least 2 injuries) and started to pay-off. And, of course, the fact that it has is almost exclusively down to good fortune on Symonds' behalf and I don't really think you can credit selectors (any more than Symonds himself) for that.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
Again, Pathan being shown that he's bowling ****, Sharma has two wickets, yet we worry about Sharma because we've moved the expectations that were on Pathan on to him.
 
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Manee

Cricketer Of The Year
Irfan Pathan in his first incarnation as someone capable of hooping inswing and occasional 140kph pace was right to be expected to be a future star.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
Irfan Pathan in his first incarnation as someone capable of hooping inswing and occasional 140kph pace was right to be expected to be a future star.
He was given the responsibility of India's leading fast bowler at the age of 19. That wasn't fair on him.

I know what you're saying, but the expectancies on him have made him useless. Even if he wasn't going to be a star he would have been better than he is now had India not screwed him up.

Its as if he can't bowl a ball just back of a length and with a good line. Its either too short, or too full, or down legside.
 

Uppercut

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I completely agree with the first sentence - a bad selection is a bad selection, and a good selection certainly doesn't always pay-off. But Andrew Symonds is not a good example - his first Test selection had precisely nothing going for it, and it failed. It was only later that his selection became somewhat understandable (and even then it was only done because of at least 2 injuries) and started to pay-off. And, of course, the fact that it has is almost exclusively down to good fortune on Symonds' behalf and I don't really think you can credit selectors (any more than Symonds himself) for that.
I don't know, maybe they saw something in training or in his mentality and personality that led them to believe he could make it at the highest level given the chance? It seemed an odd one at the time, but to be fair to the selectors, i think it's more likely they acted on good information than just got really really lucky.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
With every passing year, I become more confident in my idea that a player must spend a minimum of three full seasons in domestic cricket before being eligible to play in an international match. Too many people are ruined.
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
He's had a decent finish to the Asia Cup, but I wonder, with the excess of cricket played, should he play the ODIs in Sri Lanka? He'd benefit a lot by avoiding them.
 

Manee

Cricketer Of The Year
He was given the responsibility of India's leading fast bowler at the age of 19. That wasn't fair on him.

I know what you're saying, but the expectancies on him have made him useless. Even if he wasn't going to be a star he would have been better than he is now had India not screwed him up.

Its as if he can't bowl a ball just back of a length and with a good line. Its either too short, or too full, or down legside.
I believe that his deficiencies in line could have been worked out. To be honest, I feel that the reason for his downfall was due to poor fitness and a demanding action but that a very high level of fitness and coordination were needed to close off the action to such an extent and bowl off such a high jump which wasn't always consistent.
 

Manee

Cricketer Of The Year
He's had a decent finish to the Asia Cup, but I wonder, with the excess of cricket played, should he play the ODIs in Sri Lanka? He'd benefit a lot by avoiding them.
Indeed, AWTA. There is definately some swing in Sri Lanka and Chaminda Vaas has shown that steady medium pace can succeed in Sri Lanka.
 

Top_Cat

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You cannot honestly tell me that someone on the selection actually made a decision on Nathan Hauritz based on actually watching him bowl? I mean commone, you'd have to be a real clown if you thought he was ever going to cut it at the international level. Yes statistics arent the be all and end all for everything, but basic understanding will tell you that if you arent performing consistently at the domestic level, you wont be doing so at the international level any time soon. Yet we see selections like that made all the time.

Equally, selections are not just about picking people from the domestic level. You also need to get rid of players in the side and that is based upon actually watching, not just on statistics. For example, how on earth someone like Geraint Jones managed to play as many tests as he did beggars belief. I mean if you couldnt tell that he was a walking wicket with his shot selection then it really brings up questions about what you are watching. Duncan Fletcher for example, was an absolutely amazing coach with great analysis on the game and was responsible for turning English cricket around but unfortunately, as a selector he couldnt tell the difference between Graham Thorpe and Geraint Jones and that was his problem.
Hauritz was highly-regarded in under-age cricket and was definitely the best of the offies going around at the time. His was a gamble that didn't pay off for many reasons and they weren't all related to ability. Notice he's not been picked again so that suggests the selectors learnt from it. Trying something different for the sake of seeing what a bloke with some potential plays like in Tests, in a low-consequence test series against a nothing team, I saw nothing wrong with that.

I agree with a lot of what you said in that paragraph. I would venture to suggest that character and ability to get along with your peers plays a big role in selection as Swann promptly found out when he made his original debut. However, I totally and completely dispute the statement in bold and it is the very reason why English selectors have made some atrocious decisions in the past. Hitting the ball well in the net has absolutely no relation to how well a player is likely to play in the middle and Im not particularly surprised that someone like Flintoff is currently hitting the balls to all corners of the nets and beyond (According to his own admission) but that doesnt give any indication as to how well he is likely to do in a match situation as there are many other skills that come into that situation. I can honestly tell you that i dont think that Ive ever managed to hit a ball as well in a match situation as I have often done in the nets and had i done so I might actually have been a somewhat capable wicket-keeper batsman. Similarly, I would not be surprised that players like Ian Bell and Kevin Pietersen are far more likely to look more attractive in the nets than the likes of Paul Collingwood or similarly Mark Waugh vs Steve Waugh. That does not mean that one player should be selected over the other as there are many qualities such as temperament and shot selection that come into match situations that are not quite replicated in the nets. How many times were Sajid Mahmood and Steve Harmison picked to play test cricket because of hitting people on the body in the nets? And how well did they fare after that. I really do hope that I never again have to hear any selector or coach admit that they picked a player based on performance in the nets as it makes them look like real novices.
For goodness sake, it's just one factor of many to consider and I only gave it as an example, not "If player x is spanking it in the nets, you must pick him!". If you pick any bloke on one factor, it's a low-percentage move.

You and Richard both suffer from this affliction; pick a post to bits, ignoring the context of the point and work your hardest to waste words refuting it and telling me stuff I already know when I never said net form was the be-all-and end-all. Geez.
 

Top_Cat

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I completely agree with the first sentence - a bad selection is a bad selection, and a good selection certainly doesn't always pay-off. But Andrew Symonds is not a good example - his first Test selection had precisely nothing going for it, and it failed. It was only later that his selection became somewhat understandable (and even then it was only done because of at least 2 injuries) and started to pay-off. And, of course, the fact that it has is almost exclusively down to good fortune on Symonds' behalf and I don't really think you can credit selectors (any more than Symonds himself) for that.
Symonds was picked on the back of excellent ODI form so it didn't have 'precisely nothing going for it' at all. His FC form wasn't brilliant but the selection was justified. He was just picked in SL against a fairly rampant Murali. Hard school to be making your way in.

And no, it's not exclusively down to good fortune he's done well. He's had some lucky breaks but turning said lucky breaks into 150+ scores as he's done is, in my view, something to be recognised at least. He's a polarising figure, though; even if he hits a chanceless ton tomorrow, I'd gues people will still be lining up to have a go at him. Not that I'm a Symonds fan or hater, I can just recognise that he's done his bit to be a regular member of the team and deserves to be there.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Hauritz was highly-regarded in under-age cricket and was definitely the best of the offies going around at the time. His was a gamble that didn't pay off for many reasons and they weren't all related to ability. Notice he's not been picked again so that suggests the selectors learnt from it. Trying something different for the sake of seeing what a bloke with some potential plays like in Tests, in a low-consequence test series against a nothing team, I saw nothing wrong with that..
They did learn from it and Im glad they did given how desperate he looked in his only test as well as in his ODI career.


For goodness sake, it's just one factor of many to consider and I only gave it as an example, not "If player x is spanking it in the nets, you must pick him!". If you pick any bloke on one factor, it's a low-percentage move.

You and Richard both suffer from this affliction; pick a post to bits, ignoring the context of the point and work your hardest to waste words refuting it and telling me stuff I already know when I never said net form was the be-all-and end-all. Geez.
The point though is that I dont think that form in the nets should have any role in test selection, however minor. There is absolutely no connection between net form and performance in the middle, and the fact that selectors continually use that as one of the reasons for selecting crap players is bemusing to say the least. Nets are only supposed to serve as a way for players to get some practice and work on their weaknesses its not supposed to sway opinions in any form of way.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Symonds was picked on the back of excellent ODI form so it didn't have 'precisely nothing going for it' at all. His FC form wasn't brilliant but the selection was justified. He was just picked in SL against a fairly rampant Murali. Hard school to be making your way in.
His selection was justified over someone who scored 202 for once out in his previous test while saving the series and the blushes for the national team?
 

Top_Cat

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His selection was justified over someone who scored 202 for once out in his previous test while saving the series and the blushes for the national team?
As they were picking him as a batting all-rounder, he had the form ahead of Katich, yes. I thought it a mistake at the time to pick a batting all-rounder and they corrected it by picking Kat later in the series.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Symonds was picked on the back of excellent ODI form so it didn't have 'precisely nothing going for it' at all. His FC form wasn't brilliant but the selection was justified. He was just picked in SL against a fairly rampant Murali. Hard school to be making your way in.
Picking someone over someone else for Tests when the dropped has Test form behind him and the favoured has ODI form behind him has nothing going for it, simple as, for mine. ODI form should never be given all that much consideration when Tests are being selected for.
And no, it's not exclusively down to good fortune he's done well. He's had some lucky breaks but turning said lucky breaks into 150+ scores as he's done is, in my view, something to be recognised at least.
Symonds has had good fortune in near enough every Test score of note - sometimes 3 or 4 let-offs per innings.
He's a polarising figure, though; even if he hits a chanceless ton tomorrow, I'd gues people will still be lining up to have a go at him. Not that I'm a Symonds fan or hater, I can just recognise that he's done his bit to be a regular member of the team and deserves to be there.
Well you can't argue with the amount of runs he's recently had to his name, selection can be done on nothing but. There is no case for Symonds not to currently be in the Test team. You can't drop someone whose scorebook average is whatever it is since 2006/07. But even if he hit a chanceless century tomorrow, it'd still be just 1 innings. If he hit 6 in the next season, then maybe we'd start to be able to talk about mind-changing, but I very much doubt that'll happen because I simply don't think he is good enough.
 

Uppercut

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All centuries need a bit of luck. Well maybe not all, but i sure can't remember one that didn't involve at least one play and miss, edge that didn't carry, dropped chance etc.

Symonds takes very obvious risks but hanging around for a long time for your runs is a risk too as it enhances the risk of someone coming up with a good ball. I've seen players let endless half-volleys outside off stump go then get done when the bowler eventually gives him something unplayable. And everyone says 'ah, it's bad luck, he got done by an excellent delivery'. I'm not a huge fan of Symonds or his style, my favourite batsman in the world at the moment is Shiv Chanderpaul. But i do think Symonds gets a bit of unfair criticism sometimes because of the way he plays in tests.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
All centuries need a bit of luck. Well maybe not all, but i sure can't remember one that didn't involve at least one play and miss, edge that didn't carry, dropped chance etc.
Huge difference between the first two and the last. Play-and-misses and edges that don't carry are never going to result in a wicket; giving a catch will normally see it held and so will do. A let-off (be it dropped catch, missed stumping, Umpiring mistake or whatever) is a massive slice of luck and is a point at which the innings should obviously have been terminated. A play-and-miss or a stroke out of reach of a fielder (be it over his head, past him or short of him) is obviously just a small stroke of luck, and will never result in a wicket.
Symonds takes very obvious risks but hanging around for a long time for your runs is a risk too as it enhances the risk of someone coming up with a good ball. I've seen players let endless half-volleys outside off stump go then get done when the bowler eventually gives him something unplayable. And everyone says 'ah, it's bad luck, he got done by an excellent delivery'. I'm not a huge fan of Symonds or his style, my favourite batsman in the world at the moment is Shiv Chanderpaul. But i do think Symonds gets a bit of unfair criticism sometimes because of the way he plays in tests.
If someone requires let-offs to score most of their innings', almost every single person of such an ilk will make no scores of note in Test cricket. Because bouts of good fortune such as Symonds has enjoyed the last 18 months are exceptionally rare. If someone is as lucky as him, it's only right that people recognise that normally he'd not have done anything of note.
 

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