Hadlee, Khan, Dev, Botham - Who was the best allrounder?

[Migara]

yeah I get it, but then the same cases could be made for the other bowlers too?

Possibly yes. I think Harbhajan does not enjoy the Kookaburra. English seamers don't enjoy the Readers. But Duke and SG are the balls that are used in limited number of countries, and Kookaburra is the most widely used. IMHO, everybody should be good with the Kookaburra. Duke and SG, yes, if you are good with it, then it's great. Otherwise have to practice with it. But when a played is brought up for a decade bowling with a Kookaburra, it becomes a part of him.

 

[bagapath]

HB, meet Mitch.

Mitch likes Kookaburra balls, blondes, long cuddles, swapping hair and beauty tips with Shane Watson, and piercings in silly places on his face.

Mitch does not like Duke balls, moving furniture, blondes fighting with his mummy and his mummy embarrassing him in front of his friends.

 

[honestbharani]

HB, meet Mitch.

Mitch likes Kookaburra balls, blondes, long cuddles, swapping hair and beauty tips with Shane Watson, and piercings in silly places on his face.

Mitch does not like Duke balls, moving furniture, blondes fighting with his mummy and his mummy embarrassing him in front of his friends.

lol... he doesn't like Laxman either, for some reason.

 

[Black_Warrior]

I had long given up on the argument but there is something incorrect being said by some people and that needs to be corrected.

To observe Imran's Wasim's and Waqar's better home averages and conclude that their home conditions offered them great help is absolutely erroneous and illogical.

Anyone who has bothered to learn a bit about Pakistani cricket would know that is untrue. The fact that they still average so well at home is a testament to their class and skill more than anything else.

If you believe Botham is better Imran Imran, thats your opinion.
If you believe Imran is a tailender, thats also your opinion (you have a right to embarrass yourself after all)
But if you state that Pakistani pitches were helpful to Imran, Wasim or Waqar in anyway, then that is just an incorrect statement. Try to read some interviews of Wasim or Imran and see what they have to say about Pakistani pitches helping fast bowlers and how hard they had to work to bowl well on these conditions. Imran gave his everything for a series against India in Pakistan and managed 40 wickets and got seriously injured soon after. According to him, that greatly effected the rest of his career.

Once again, I am not suggesting that this automatically makes Imran better than Botham, my objective here was simply to correct the incorrect statement that Imran, Wasim and Waqar were helped greatly by their home conditions just because they had better averages at home.

 

[Faisal1985]

HB, meet Mitch.

Mitch likes Kookaburra balls, blondes, long cuddles, swapping hair and beauty tips with Shane Watson, and piercings in silly places on his face.

Mitch does not like Duke balls, moving furniture, blondes fighting with his mummy and his mummy embarrassing him in front of his friends.

Proven doesn't like Duke...

 

[Ikki]

To observe Imran's Wasim's and Waqar's better home averages and conclude that their home conditions offered them great help is absolutely erroneous and illogical.

So why are Imran's home and away figures so different, for example?

If bowling at home was harder than the conditions in other places (hence away) how come they didn't do as well away?

The Pakistani pitches were dead and flat. They were renown for being the graveyard of fast bowlers. But the simple fact is that the generation following Sarfaraz learned how to swing the ball awesomely. It meant that it didn't hinder them near as much as it could have and it was mainly for visiting bowlers that it became such a treacherous place.

Had they then gone overseas, in so-called easier conditions, and done better...then that would make sense and it would justify giving them extra praise for toiling in conditions for half their career (since players tend to play half their tests at home) whereas visitors would only visit every so often. But they didn't.

I ask you, if it is right to give them praise for doing well in 'harder conditions', then should they not be critiqued for not having done better in the 'easier' conditions?

For the people who are upset by the argument that I have brought, along with some others, I would like to hear their thoughts on these questions I've raised in this post.

 

[Black_Warrior]

So why are Imran's home and away figures so different, for example?

If bowling at home was harder than the conditions in other places (hence away) how come they didn't do as well away?

The Pakistani pitches were dead and flat. They were renown for being the graveyard of fast bowlers. But the simple fact is that the generation following Sarfaraz learned how to swing the ball awesomely. It meant that it didn't hinder them near as much as it could have and it was mainly for visiting bowlers that it became such a treacherous place.

Had they then gone overseas, in so-called easier conditions, and done better...then that would make sense and it would justify giving them extra praise for toiling in conditions for half their career (since players tend to play half their tests at home) whereas visitors would only visit every so often. But they didn't.

I ask you, if it is right to give them praise for doing well in 'harder conditions', then should they not be critiqued for not having done better in the 'easier' conditions?

For the people who are upset by the argument that I have brought, along with some others, I would like to hear their thoughts on these questions I've raised in this post.

Look you're behaving as if they had terrible averages away. Averaging in the range 24-25 is certainly not something to be ashamed of. You do realize that what is away for Imran is home for the batsmen?? You do realize that when Imran is up against a Chappell or a Gavaskar or a Richards away, they are actually playing at home?

 

[Ikki]

No, I am not pretending they were terrible away. I am just highlighting the marked difference between their home and away records. A difference you can't ignore.

Imran and Waqar are practically a different bowler home and away - Wasim fares just a bit better. If it was harder in Pakistan to bowl out Chappell/Richards then why would Imran, for example, do worse in their respective homes where the conditions favoured him more? Are you implying that the fans made the difference?

 

[G.I.Joe]

Look you're behaving as if they had terrible averages away. Averaging in the range 24-25 is certainly not something to be ashamed of. You do realize that what is away for Imran is home for the batsmen?? You do realize that when Imran is up against a Chappell or a Gavaskar or a Richards away, they are actually playing at home?

That's a very good point.

 

[Black_Warrior]

I just explained it..because the conditions also favoured Chappell and Richards?
I will just quote myself

You do realize that what is away for Imran is home for the batsmen?? You do realize that when Imran is up against a Chappell or a Gavaskar or a Richards away, they are actually playing at home?

 

[Ikki]

I just explained it..because the conditions also favoured Chappell and Richards?
I will just quote myself

Why would fast pitches (which are more conducive to fast bowling) favour Richards and Chappell more?

Oh, because they grew up in those conditions? Thanks for proving my point for me.

 

[Sir Alex]

I just explained it..because the conditions also favoured Chappell and Richards?
I will just quote myself

Black Warrior right on the money...

 

[Sir Alex]

Why would fast pitches (which are more conducive to fast bowling) favour Richards and Chappell more?

Oh, because they grew up in those conditions? Thanks for proving my point for me.

A bit OT, but if I invert your argument and show that Hayden, Ponting etc are home bullies and average overseas, purely going by their home and away averages, will you accept?

 

[Avada Kedavra]

I had long given up on the argument but there is something incorrect being said by some people and that needs to be corrected.

To observe Imran's Wasim's and Waqar's better home averages and conclude that their home conditions offered them great help is absolutely erroneous and illogical.

Anyone who has bothered to learn a bit about Pakistani cricket would know that is untrue. The fact that they still average so well at home is a testament to their class and skill more than anything else.
If you believe Botham is better Imran Imran, thats your opinion.
If you believe Imran is a tailender, thats also your opinion (you have a right to embarrass yourself after all)
But if you state that Pakistani pitches were helpful to Imran, Wasim or Waqar in anyway, then that is just an incorrect statement. Try to read some interviews of Wasim or Imran and see what they have to say about Pakistani pitches helping fast bowlers and how hard they had to work to bowl well on these conditions. Imran gave his everything for a series against India in Pakistan and managed 40 wickets and got seriously injured soon after. According to him, that greatly effected the rest of his career.

Once again, I am not suggesting that this automatically makes Imran better than Botham, my objective here was simply to correct the incorrect statement that Imran, Wasim and Waqar were helped greatly by their home conditions just because they had better averages at home.

This.

 

[G.I.Joe]

As an aside, and this is a genuine question - How much truth is there to the stories I've heard that Imran preferred make England his home base, and only flew out to Pakistan for home test series? How much domestic cricket did Imran play in Pakistan, especially after he became an established player?

 

[Black_Warrior]

None at all.. He stopped playing first class cricket in Pakistan from 1980 onwards if I am not mistaken..his justification was playing there would add nothing to his cricket..
He tends to prefer English count cricket and English women

 

[Ikki]

A bit OT, but if I invert your argument and show that Hayden, Ponting etc are home bullies and average overseas, purely going by their home and away averages, will you accept?

I've never argued that either deserved extra praise for batting at home. Quite the opposite. I expect them to do well at home. Get the difference?

Also, not only is it a bit off-topic, but you're wrong. Calling Ponting a home bully is a joke. The number of times you've tried to pick and choose what points you understand in several arguments and try to use in an attempt to show double-standards borders on trolling.

 

[Ikki]

Still waiting for an answer to this BW:

Why would fast pitches (which are more conducive to fast bowling) favour Richards and Chappell more?

Oh, because they grew up in those conditions? Thanks for proving my point for me.

Thanks.

 

[Sir Alex]

I've never argued that either deserved extra praise for batting at home. Quite the opposite. I expect them to do well at home. Get the difference?

Alright.

 

[G.I.Joe]

None at all.. He stopped playing first class cricket in Pakistan from 1980 onwards if I am not mistaken..his justification was playing there would add nothing to his cricket..
He tends to prefer English count cricket and English women

lol. Surely the fact that he didn't play domestic cricket in Pakistan 1980 onwards should also be a factor? It's not like never forgetting how to ride a bicycle.