Hadlee, Khan, Dev, Botham - Who was the best allrounder?

[Sir Alex]

Also here's what same Woolmer has to say,

In 2004 he broke through big. Sheikhupura was no longer first-class, so he moved to Sialkot via Quetta. In the midst of a 28-wicket burst in five games in October and November that year, he was called for a fast bowling camp. Woolmer, overseeing, concluded: "He swung the ball a lot and bowled good players out. He looked comfortably the best."

 

[Avada Kedavra]

I put up all the stats because unlike you, I am open with the stats I use.

No you did not.That is a lie.

Look at all 3s' performances against Australia, at home and away:

Imran. Waqar. Wasim.

Coincidence again?

The above makes that pretty obvious.It's clear that you reversed Wasim's home/away averages and ended up owning yourself.

I don't go building an argument on 4 tests .

You were the one who brought up Akram's stats and then claimed the sample was too small when you realised it didn't show what you thought it did

You are the one taking credit away from Murali for bowling on spin friendly pitches (btw do you know that using the "A performed much better in B's home but B failed miserably in A's works very much against your argument when comparing certain batsman ) but refusing use of the same logic for subcontinent fast bowlers on flat graveyard pitches,pitches on which some ATG fast bowlers averaged 100.

You are the one claiming Sarfaraz was a seam bowler more than a swing bowler

You are the one resorting to personal attacks,twisting your arguments and clutching at straws.

 

[nightprowler10]

Asif depends on seam to get movement rather than swing.

 

[Sir Alex]

Asif depends on seam to get movement rather than swing.

Disagree on the more.. Agree that he indeed relies on seam movement but I don't think he has anywhere remarked himself as a primarily seam bowler.

Look at what he had to say when he was posed the same question:

What are the basics a fast bowler needs to remember irrespective of the pitches he is bowling on and the batsmen he is bowling to?

There are three are four different types of fast bowlers. Some depend on swing, some on seam, and some on raw pace. I am the kind of bowler who depends on seam and swing. I try to bowl within the stumps. If the batsman is beaten or deceived, the ball should go on to hit the stumps. My line and length is such that the ball should not go over the height of the bails. Some bowlers just like to see the keeper gathering the ball over his head. That looks good, but it's not much use.

'The line's the thing' | Pakistan Cricket Features | Cricinfo.com

 

[Sir Alex]

Of course Sarfaraz being a seamer than a swinger is news to me.

 

[Sir Alex]

Also here's what Inzy had to say about Asif:

"Asif has immaculate length control and a natural ability to swing the ball both ways. He is also quick to spot a weakness in a batsman and work on it."

Inzamam rues lost opportunity | Cricket News | Global | Cricinfo.com

 

[Ikki]

Even in that link what Woolmer is saying is this :

"He is a modern-day fast bowler based on the likes of [Shaun] Pollock and [Glenn] McGrath. He gives you control and has the ability to hit the seam and make the ball move both ways. In Pakistan terms he is more Sarfraz Nawaz than Imran Khan. He is both humble and confident and very determined. He hates to lose and backs himself. He said to me when he left Australia (after an unimpressive debut in January 2005), "Don't worry coach I will show you what I can do. Just wait." - Bob Woolmer on Asif.

By no stretch of imagination, that means he is more of a seamer than a swing bowler.

That's vague. I actually read that in that he can hit the seam and move it both ways. Not that hitting the seam and moving it both ways are two separate things. Although, you still don't have to stretch your imagination much. Woolmer makes it a point to differentiate between Sarfaraz and Imran. Sarfaraz did help discover reverse swing and was good at it, but he was also a seamer who tended to hit the deck hard. Furthermore, for what it means to this discussion; his home and away figures are practically the same - even if in favour of away. But then again he wasn't as good a swinger of the ball as the 3 others, nor was he as good a bowler in general.

Asif, regardless of how you class him, has only bowled 4 tests at home. So Avada's really stretching with his argument even if we concede they hooped the ball in their sleep. For what it's worth, I'd still class Asif, from what I have seen of him, as more of a seamer who can swing. Definitely looked that way down under.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

And when speaking of Botha's peak, they tend to glorify it and disregard Imran's peak which was few years later.

In fairness to Botha he was the first South African Prime Minister to allow mixed race marriages and many people think that he would have abolished apartheid if he hadn't seen the potential dangers in the rise of Communism in Africa. Imran relied on his cricketing fame to influence political situations but had no real talent and was the just the face and voice of others.

 

[Sir Alex]

That's vague. I actually read that in that he can hit the seam and move it both ways. Not that hitting the seam and moving it both ways are two separate things. Although, you still don't have to stretch your imagination much. Woolmer makes it a point to differentiate between Sarfaraz and Imran. Sarfaraz did help discover reverse swing and was good at it, but he was also a seamer who tended to hit the deck hard. Furthermore, for what it means to this discussion; his home and away figures are practically the same - even if in favour of away. But then again he wasn't as good a swinger of the ball as the 3 others, nor was he as good a bowler in general.

Asif, regardless of how you class him, has only bowled 4 tests at home. So Avada's really stretching with his argument even if we concede they hooped the ball in their sleep. For what it's worth, I'd still class Asif, from what I have seen of him, as more of a seamer who can swing. Definitely looked that way down under.

Ikki, both Woolmer and Inzy have said in clear cut terms what they think Asif is... I've quoted also in previous posts the same. All things being equal, I'd have to accept what they think about Asif than what you think, and it's pretty logical right?

I haven't come across references where Sarfaraz was considered as a better seamer than a swinger.

His sample size may or may not be enough, but that's not the point. You cannot make such wholesale arguments like "he is more of a seamer than swinger" without providing adequate backup.

 

[nightprowler10]

Disagree on the more.. Agree that he indeed relies on seam movement but I don't think he has anywhere remarked himself as a primarily seam bowler.

Look at what he had to say when he was posed the same question

I'm not doubting what he said, its just that I've watched most of the matches he's played and if I had to label him, I'd label him a seamer. Aamer, for example, tends to use both seam and swing to his advantage. Asif is primarily a seamer in the mold of McGrath and Fazal Mahmood.

EDIT: What Woolmer said. As for Inzi and Asif, I have to wonder if they're getting their terminology confused in those interviews.

 

[Ikki]

No you did not.That is a lie.

I did. Go check that spreadsheet. It includes neutral figures. At least do the decent thing and check before you call people liars.

The above makes that pretty obvious.It's clear that you reversed Wasim's home/away averages and ended up owning yourself.

If anything, it showed that Waqar and Imran were MUCH better at home than in Australia and that Wasim had 1 bad series against Australia at home. Which again, on the whole, goes towards my argument.

If I hadn't listed Wasim, after having cited him in other examples, it would have been disingenuous. For some people apparently that's not a problem.

You were the one who brought up Akram's stats and then claimed the sample was too small when you realised it didn't show what you thought it did

I didn't list just his stats - I listed 3 bowlers. For some reason this keeps going above your head. You think 1 bad series undos my argument...when in the other link you have Imran averaging 16.57 at home striking at 50.3, and averaging 28.51 in Aus and striking at 67.5. The bigger picture keeps eluding you.

You are the one taking credit away from Murali for bowling on spin friendly pitches (btw do you know that using the "A performed much better in B's home but B failed miserably in A's works very much against your argument when comparing certain batsman ) but refusing use of the same logic for subcontinent fast bowlers on flat graveyard pitches,pitches on which some ATG fast bowlers averaged 100.

They're completely different. I've already mentioned how the arguments are directly opposite. This is just you trying to save face and divert the argument. But I'll bite. There are only 2 places in world cricket where spin bowling outdoes pace bowling: India and Sri Lanka. One of the worst places to bowl spin is Australia. There just happens to be an Australian who bowls better in Sri Lanka than the Sri Lankan does. I'll let you figure out who that is.

You are the one claiming Sarfaraz was a seam bowler more than a swing bowler

You are the one resorting to personal attacks,twisting your arguments and clutching at straws.

Sure I am...you said I am a liar...and the stats I used show I used the neutral tests.
You said I was trying to hinder Waqar's record by including the neutral tests when compared to Aus...I showed you they actually helped his record.
You tried to build an argument based on 4 home tests by Asif...and at the same time ignore 3 whole careers by 3 of his countrymen.

Give up while you're behind.

 

[Sir Alex]

I'm not doubting what he said, its just that I've watched most of the matches he's played and if I had to label him, I'd label him a seamer. Aamer, for example, tends to use both seam and swing to his advantage. Asif is primarily a seamer in the mold of McGrath and Fazal Mahmood.

EDIT: What Woolmer said. As for Inzi and Asif, I have to wonder if they're getting their terminology confused in those interviews.

Would be hugely surprised if Inzy, for all his understanding of the English language, would be so naive as to confuse between swing and seam, after all these years in International cricket.

What are your views on Sarfaraz?

 

[Avada Kedavra]

I did. Go check that spreadsheet. It includes neutral figures. At least do the decent thing and check before you call people liars..If anything, it showed that Waqar and Imran were MUCH better at home than in Australia and that Wasim had 1 bad series against Australia at home. Which again, on the whole, goes towards my argument.

You obviously thought Wasim's stats backed up your argument as well - otherwise you would not have said "look at all 3...".There was no mention of Wasim's home figures being worse than his away figures anywhere in that post.So yes,that was a lie.You are bringing up some rubbish about neutral tests to cover up your lie.


Btw,one more for you :

Akhtar away from Pak : 25.01
Akhtar home : 26.48

They're completely different. I've already mentioned how the arguments are directly opposite. This is just you trying to save face and divert the argument. But I'll bite. There are only 2 places in world cricket where spin bowling outdoes pace bowling: India and Sri Lanka. One of the worst places to bowl spin is Australia. There just happens to be an Australian who bowls better in Sri Lanka than the Sri Lankan does. I'll let you figure out who that is.

Great argument.Let me try something like that too- there happen to be an Ind and an Aus bat who both average more or less the same in Aus but the Aus bat averages only 1/3 of what the Indian averages in Ind....great argument isn't it?

 

[nightprowler10]

Not as well read on Sarfaraz, but he was similar in that he used the seam to get movement a lot but wasn't as dependent on it as Asif, as in he used swing more. Asif's greatest strength isn't movement anyway, its his near unerring accuracy. He wouldn't be anywhere near as potent if he depended on seam or swing alone at his pace.

 

[Ikki]

You obviously thought Wasim's stats backed up your argument as well - otherwise you would not have said "look at all 3...".There was no mention of Wasim's home figures being worse than his away figures anywhere in that post.So yes,that was a lie.You are bringing up some rubbish about neutral tests to cover up your lie.

No, it's the combination of the 3 that I thought proved my argument, and it did. Even in Wasim's stats, he has 2 series: one very good, one awfully bad. How does 1 bad series across 3 bowlers detract from my argument? You're tiresome to say the least.

Btw,one more for you :

Akhtar away from Pak : 25.01
Akhtar home : 26.48

Yeh, Akhtar is a little bit better away than he is at home. You win the argument. Let's look at his patchy career and ignore the long careers of Wasim, Waqar and Imran because of the little bit that Akhtar is better away from home.

Great argument.Let me give try something like that too- there happen to be an Ind and an Aus bat who both average more or less the same in Aus but the Aus bat averages only 1/3 of that in Ind....great argument isn't it?

No, because it doesn't reflect my argument and like all your other points don't make much sense. Try harder.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

No, it's the combination of the 3 that I thought proved my argument, and it did. Even in Wasim's stats, he has 2 series: one very good, one awfully bad. How does 1 bad series across 3 bowlers detract from my argument? You're tiresome to say the least..

You keep making excuses after getting caught out on Wasim but refuse to acknowledge that Waqar was carrying an injury when he bowled in Aus?

Yeh, Akhtar is a little bit better away than he is at home. You win the argument. Let's look at his patchy career and ignore the long careers of Wasim, Waqar and Imran because of the little bit that Akhtar is better away from home.
.

So the 1.78 point diff for Warne was MUCH better but a 1.5 diff is just a "little bitter"?

Nah Ikki,you win.Pak pitches are great for fast bowling,so Pak fast bowlers don't deserve extra praise for bowling on pitches where fast bowlers tend to struggle.Let's use whoever averages less in Pak to prove your point.

No, because it doesn't reflect my argument and like all your other points don't make much sense. Try harder.

Yeah,it doesn't suit your argument so it doesn't make sense.Excellent!

 

[Ikki]

You keep making excuses after getting caught out on Wasim but refuse to acknowledge that Waqar was carrying an injury when he bowled in Aus?

I keep trying to explain it to ya, but it seems you just can't compute. Oh well. One last try:

Waqar at home v Aus: 25.80, 44.6
Waqar away v Aus: 40.50, 81.4
Waqar at neutral v Aus: 31.50, 49.5

Overall v Aus: 33.80, 62.7

(Avg, SR)

If I remove his neutral tests...it makes his record away from home even WORSE - which HELPS my argument. If you insist, I'll remove them...it just makes my point even stronger.

So the 1.78 point diff for Warne was MUCH better but a 1.5 diff is just a "little bitter"?

Someone apparently hasn't heard of this thing called strike-rate. The difference between Warne's SR home and away is 6 points. That's a lot even in a patchy career like Akhtar's that is barely 40+ tests...in a 145 test career it is huge.

Nah Ikki,you win.Pak pitches are great for fast bowling,so Pak fast bowlers don't deserve extra praise for bowling on pitches where fast bowlers tend to struggle.Let's use whatever bowlers that average less in Pak to prove your point.

No, they're usually not great for visiting bowlers; especially ones that rely on seam or cutting. For swing bowlers (which many of Pakistan's premier bowlers have been) it doesn't make a great difference. If anything, it's better bowling in Pakistan if you're a swing bowler than Australia.

As demonstrated. Many times. Many many times.

Yeah,it doesn't suit your argument so it doesn't make sense.Excellent!

Yeah...that's it.

 

[slowfinger]

You keep making excuses after getting caught out on Wasim but refuse to acknowledge that Waqar was carrying an injury when he bowled in Aus?






So the 1.78 point diff for Warne was MUCH better but a 1.5 diff is just a "little bitter"?

Nah Ikki,you win.Pak pitches are great for fast bowling,so Pak fast bowlers don't deserve extra praise for bowling on pitches where fast bowlers tend to struggle.Let's use whoever averages less in Pak to prove your point.






Yeah,it doesn't suit your argument so it doesn't make sense.Excellent!

Now that is brutal comebacking. Bern.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

I keep trying to explain it to ya, but it seems you just can't compute. Oh well. One last try
Waqar at home v Aus: 25.80, 44.6
Waqar away v Aus: 40.50, 81.4
Waqar at neutral v Aus: 31.50, 49.5

Overall v Aus: 33.80, 62.7

(Avg, SR)

If I remove his neutral tests...it makes his record away from home even WORSE - which HELPS my argument. If you insist, I'll remove them...it just makes my point even stronger.:.

What?! My point is that Waqar's record in Aus is misleading because he was carrying an injury when he played there.Or is the injury excuse only allowed for Warne in India?

If anything, it's better bowling in Pakistan if you're a swing bowler than Australia.

As demonstrated. Many times. Many many times.

even by your standards,that is ridiculous

 

[Ikki]

What?! My point is that Waqar's record in Aus is misleading because he was carrying an injury when he played there.Or is the injury excuse only allowed for Warne in India?

In Aus? I thought you meant the neutral tests where he retired not long after.

He played 3 separate series about 5 years apart each. He doesn't have 1 good series in Aus

His record in Aus is poorer than his record against Aus at home, regardless. Me right, you wrong, again. He was simply much better at home than away.

even by your standards,that is ridiculous

you even dispute the obvious...suddenly Australia is ripe for swing bowling.