Eoin Morgan

[rivera213]

He would now, but when he came over to the UK and started at Notts he wasn't one of the best batsmen in the world.
The fact he was dropped from the Natal side, due to quota or other reasons, was part of the reason he sought out moving to the UK.

He wasn't as good when he was 19 and came to these shores, but when he was 22/23, people were starting to notice him and SA could've picked him (or at least shown an interest in him) then. Even in 2003, long before his selection for England, he was easily good enough to get into the SA team but chose England (the racist selection policies in SA made that decision slightly easier, but I'm sure if SA came knocking Kevin would've said thanks but no thanks).

Also, Pietersen only seems to get crap because it's cricket. He has an English Mum and if he were a footballer, nothing would be said.

BTW- He was also principlly a spinner who batted @ 8 or 9 for the majority of his career in SA, only when he came here ca 2000 did he truly develop his batting. Had he continued to be a spinner, he'd have got into the SA team on that alone, but his batting wouldn't have developed as much I feel so thank god for that! Lol

The point being that Pietersen is now one of the worlds greatest batsmen and IMO is easily good enough to play for South Africa.
However, the point Rivera made was that Pietersen's case was different to Morgan's because Pietersen would easily make SA's test side, however, in the context he was making that point it was irrelevant as Pietersen left at a time when he was a "good county player" not the outstanding batsman he is today.

Pietersen was a top notch batsmen back in 2003, before he qualified for England. He was good enough to play for SA then, yet alone now.

 

[rivera213]

I've said it a good few times but those to blame for this are those who insist Ireland and England (and Scotland) be separate cricket teams.

Yeah, it makes no sense.

It should be changed to Great Britain and Ireland Cricket Board with Ireland and Scotland playing as seperate counties (same rules to apply as the other counties) but internationally play for England.

Which flag would they play under?

Make up a flag like the West Indies, with a white background since that's the only colour all 5 nations share.

Bet you weren't expecting an answer were ya?

Only reason it's different is because Keane would never, ever, ever, ever play for England.

How about Thierry Henry?

Keane is a British-hating catholic, but Thierry loves everything about English football.

 

[rivera213]

I'm Scottish, and if I thought I was good enough to play Tests for England, if I was given the choice of only ever representing Scotland or England, then I'd pick England, no questions asked.

Gavin Hamilton's sentiments exactly.

It'd be easier if there was a Great British team but that involves some common sense.

 

[James_W]

Yeah, it makes no sense.

It should be changed to Great Britain and Ireland Cricket Board with Ireland and Scotland playing as seperate counties (same rules to apply as the other counties) but internationally play for England.




Make up a flag like the West Indies, with a white background since that's the only colour all 5 nations share.

Bet you weren't expecting an answer were ya?




How about Thierry Henry?

Keane is a British-hating catholic, but Thierry loves everything about English football.

Woah woah woah woah woah woah. wagagagaga waggaga. What does being Catholic have to do with anything? I wouldn't say he hates British, seeing as he saved Gary Neville from getting slapped about by Patrick Vieira.

Is that where ignorance leads? People think everyone who is proud of being Irish hates the British?

EDIT: Don't bother answering that question, way off topic, but that was a very silly comment, angered me a bit. I know you probably don't have a clue about Ireland, but really, ignorance is not an excuse. Be more tactful in future.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

Imagine if this happened in another sport? For example football where there aren't lots of different formats creating barriers, a player who plays for Ireland (e.g. Roy Keane if he had claimed British citizenship) then get's picked for England (I reckon he was certainly good enough) who decide they want him, Keane will get paid 500% of what he gets paid for representing Ireland so he plays for England instead. Or perhaps the Irish side isn't any good and won't qualify for the world cup while England will so he chooses England. How do you think that would be received? Is this really any different?

This already happens, tbf. Owen Hargreaves grew up in Canada, to Welsh parents, moved to Germany when he was 15, and plays football for England, a country which he had barely set foot in when he was called up.

Agree with Brumby's suggestion here though.

 

[oitoitoi]

Keane is a British-hating catholic.

That's bang out of order.


Regarding Hargreaves, that's a different situation, he'd never represented another national side.

 

[BoyBrumby]

This already happens, tbf. Owen Hargreaves grew up in Canada, to Welsh parents, moved to Germany when he was 15, and plays football for England, a country which he had barely set foot in when he was called up.

Agree with Brumby's suggestion here though.

Hargreaves dad an Englishman, tbf. Mother a leekist tho, yes.

 

[TT Boy]

The ICC could easily curtail such incidents from ever happening. Simply apply the FIFA method and whilst that means the likes of Eoin Morgan won’t play test cricket, it is a simple case of tough ****. George Weah never played in a World Cup.

Jonathan Trott and Craig Kieswetter both played U19 WC cricket for South Africa yet, illogically both men are able and want to represent England. It shouldn’t be on.

 

[BoyBrumby]

The ICC could easily curtail such incidents from ever happening. Simply apply the FIFA method and whilst that means the likes of Eoin Morgan won’t play test cricket, it is a simple case of tough ****. George Weah never played in a World Cup.

Jonathan Trott and Craig Kieswetter both played U19 WC cricket for South Africa yet, illogically both men are able and want to represent England. It shouldn’t be on.

TBF tho, Weah at least had a chance of playing at a WC with Liberia (ditto George Best & Ryan Giggs and any other great player who never played in a finals tournament); the way cricket is set up with "test status" only accorded to a very select few nations means guys like Morgan have no option but to switch allegiances if they want to play at the highest level.

Pretty sure players can switch footballing nationalities if they move before a certain age too, so Trott & Kieswetter aren't unique to cricket. Timmy Cahill famously played for Samoa Under-21s before playing for the Socceroos and Freddie Kanoute played age group for France before throwing his lot in with Mali.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Wasn't Cahill even younger than U/19s? Or maybe it was when he was 14 or something.

 

[rivera213]

Woah woah woah woah woah woah. wagagagaga waggaga. What does being Catholic have to do with anything? I wouldn't say he hates British, seeing as he saved Gary Neville from getting slapped about by Patrick Vieira.

Is that where ignorance leads? People think everyone who is proud of being Irish hates the British?

EDIT: Don't bother answering that question, way off topic, but that was a very silly comment, angered me a bit. I know you probably don't have a clue about Ireland, but really, ignorance is not an excuse. Be more tactful in future.

Lol.

2 of my family lines are Irish (Eire). It was tongue-in-cheek.

It probably didn't make sense to anyone, sorry if it caused offence.

* I know a fair bit about Irish history but off topic.

 

[TT Boy]

TBF tho, Weah at least had a chance of playing at a WC with Liberia (ditto George Best & Ryan Giggs and any other great player who never played in a finals tournament); the way cricket is set up with "test status" only accorded to a very select few nations means guys like Morgan have no option but to switch allegiances if they want to play at the highest level.

Pretty sure players can switch footballing nationalities if they move before a certain age too, so Trott & Kieswetter aren't unique to cricket. Timmy Cahill famously played for Samoa Under-21s before playing for the Socceroos and Freddie Kanoute played age group for France before throwing his lot in with Mali.

Cahill and Kanoute are a couple of anomalies. I believe if you play in a FIFA sanctioned event then that is it (so the same as an ICC U19 WC).

Argentina selected Lionel Messi for the FIFA Youth World Cup in 2005 (without seeing him play, as he was with Barcelona) just to make sure he wasn’t poached by Spain. Who did try and look at poaching him but were told by FIFA where to go.

 

[Migara]

A few Pakistanis played for pre-partition India and later played for Pakistan too: Abdul Kardar, Jenni Irani & Amir Elahi. I meant had any Sri Lankans played for Pakistan or India.

No they have not. Mahadevan Sathasivam (1950s), FC de Saram (1930s), and CI Gunasekara (1940s) were the best Ceylon had then. Sathasivam was good enough to walk in to the Indian side of the era and would have been serious contender for English middle order as well, and latter two also possibly test class. They found even a county stint very hard to come by despite being real good players. These three are possibly better than any associate player ever.

 

[andruid]

Because players will want to play at the highest level possible, something that's not possible unless you happen to have been born in England, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, the islands which make up the West Indies, Sri Lanka, India, Pakistan or Bangladesh.

I'm Scottish, and if I thought I was good enough to play Tests for England, if I was given the choice of only ever representing Scotland or England, then I'd pick England, no questions asked.

The ICC could easily curtail such incidents from ever happening. Simply apply the FIFA method and whilst that means the likes of Eoin Morgan won’t play test cricket, it is a simple case of tough ****. George Weah never played in a World Cup.

Jonathan Trott and Craig Kieswetter both played U19 WC cricket for South Africa yet, illogically both men are able and want to represent England. It shouldn’t be on.

Ok I just grabbed at a random number of quotes with no real knowledege of what I was doing..

Anyway. Again there is anissue that is being miseed here. All the Nashes and the Caddicks and the Pietersens, and the Strausses et al, like Morgan wre not born in England yet they the played for England. That is true and taken from that perspective there is absolutely nothing wrong with Eoin Morgan representing England after playing for Ireland, or being born in Ireland. However, unlike those other examples (and it also hold partially true for Ed Joyce) Eoin Morgan has almost been literally plucked out of the Ireland team and gone straight into the England set up in a way that can only be compared to a a football club making a signing (eg Carrick moving from Spurs to Man U in order to get champions league football) minus the big money and it seems to be okay because England are big boys and Ireland as an associate are virtually inconsequentail in World cricket. The likes of caddick and Pietersen, irreepective of how good the have become, or became, had never represented their birth countries senior teams at the level Eoin Morgan has and therefore did not have to face the same barriers that Morgan does. Further to that if by some bizzare re-alignemnt of the cosmos Pietersen suddenly wanted to play for S.A he would have to fulfil a qualfication period spanning several years, as is the case with Ed Joyce ever playing for Ireland again, and probaly would be the case with Eoin Morgan if he were to fall out of favour with England selectors, yet even though Eoin Moragn has come virtually come straight out of playing ODIs for Ireland to march right inot englands ODI side, he would not be able to march stright back into the Ireland XI if the England thing did not work out. C'Mon how the hell is such confusion being allowed to occur in this day and age?

 

[BoyBrumby]

Wasn't Cahill even younger than U/19s? Or maybe it was when he was 14 or something.

IIRC he was selected at 14 for the U-21s whilst on holiday visiting his mum's rellies.

Ok I just grabbed at a random number of quotes with no real knowledege of what I was doing..

Anyway. Again there is anissue that is being miseed here. All the Nashes and the Caddicks and the Pietersens, and the Strausses et al, like Morgan wre not born in England yet they the played for England. That is true and taken from that perspective there is absolutely nothing wrong with Eoin Morgan representing England after playing for Ireland, or being born in Ireland. However, unlike those other examples (and it also hold partially true for Ed Joyce) Eoin Morgan has almost been literally plucked out of the Ireland team and gone straight into the England set up in a way that can only be compared to a a football club making a signing (eg Carrick moving from Spurs to Man U in order to get champions league football) minus the big money and it seems to be okay because England are big boys and Ireland as an associate are virtually inconsequentail in World cricket. The likes of caddick and Pietersen, irreepective of how good the have become, or became, had never represented their birth countries senior teams at the level Eoin Morgan has and therefore did not have to face the same barriers that Morgan does. Further to that if by some bizzare re-alignemnt of the cosmos Pietersen suddenly wanted to play for S.A he would have to fulfil a qualfication period spanning several years, as is the case with Ed Joyce ever playing for Ireland again, and probaly would be the case with Eoin Morgan if he were to fall out of favour with England selectors, yet even though Eoin Moragn has come virtually come straight out of playing ODIs for Ireland to march right inot englands ODI side, he would not be able to march stright back into the Ireland XI if the England thing did not work out. C'Mon how the hell is such confusion being allowed to occur in this day and age?

Think a distinction should be drawn between players who were born in one country and raised in another and those born and raised aboard.

Strauss, for instance, was born in Jo'burg but arrived in England at 7 via a short spell in Melbourne. He only has to speak to betray his nationality; sounds as English as drizzle and warm beer. Ditto Symonds; it's madness to say he's a Pom because he was born here. He's been in Oz since he was 18 months old.

Guys like Caddick, Pietersen & Nash are different in that they moved to the country they now represent as adults.

The best way of determining nationality I heard was the "nephew" rule, can't recall where I first saw it, but it's roughly this: imagine any player has a brother, one year younger than him, who's not an international sportsman and hasn't emigrated for work as an adult. This brother has a son and this hypothetical nephew's nationality determines his uncle's. So Strauss, born in SA but moved to England with his folks as a nipper, is English, because if he had a brother he would have also emigrated with him, but KP is a Yarp, as he moved to England aged about 19 or 20 without his parents.

 

[wpdavid]

IIRC he was selected at 14 for the U-21s whilst on holiday visiting his mum's rellies.



Think a distinction should be drawn between players who were born in one country and raised in another and those born and raised aboard.

Strauss, for instance, was born in Jo'burg but arrived in England at 7 via a short spell in Melbourne. He only has to speak to betray his nationality; sounds as English as drizzle and warm beer. Ditto Symonds; it's madness to say he's a Pom because he was born here. He's been in Oz since he was 18 months old.

Guys like Caddick, Pietersen & Nash are different in that they moved to the country they now represent as adults.

The best way of determining nationality I heard was the "nephew" rule, can't recall where I first saw it, but it's roughly this: imagine any player has a brother, one year younger than him, who's not an international sportsman and hasn't emigrated for work as an adult. This brother has a son and this hypothetical nephew's nationality determines his uncle's. So Strauss, born in SA but moved to England with his folks as a nipper, is English, because if he had a brother he would have also emigrated with him, but KP is a Yarp, as he moved to England aged about 19 or 20 without his parents.

I've read your last para twice and I'm still struggling - it's been a long week.

I think that parentage must come into it, as well as where they were brought up. That probably does leave some people with a choice of natioanlity, but I can live with that so long as the choice is irrevocable after a reasonable age, probably around 16.

 

[GIMH]

Brumby can you explain that nephew rule a bit, I'm struggling with it.

FWIW I don't think there's much wrong with the ICC's eligibility rules, it's merely the jumping ship I think should be tidied up. ie I have no problem with Pietersen playing for us but it does feel a little strange that in a couple of years when we are having arguments about Morgan's ODI average and how it reflects his ability people will be saying, "yes his overall average is X but remove his games for Ireland, he only averages Y for England..."

So yeah, I guess I would be in the "if you've played Tests, ODIs or T20Is for one country, then you never play any full international for another, end of discussion." This means Joyce would have still been eligible.

As it is though, those aren't the rules so I don't think anything wrong has been done with Morgan being selected. I can definitely see where people are coming from though, interesting thread

 

[BoyBrumby]

I've read your last para twice and I'm still struggling - it's been a long week.

I think that parentage must come into it, as well as where they were brought up. That probably does leave some people with a choice of natioanlity, but I can live with that so long as the choice is irrevocable after a reasonable age, probably around 16.

Yeah, maybe it wasn't as clear written out as it was in my head.

I think basically upbringing is the key: guys like Wilf Slack, Devon Malcolm, Chris Lewis, Gladstone Small, etc I'd consider English because, despite all being (I think) caribbean-born, they moved to the UK with their folks for non-cricket reasons. Whereas blokes like Allan Lamb, the Smiths & the Greigs are South African because they moved over here as adults to pursue careers in cricket.

Or something...

 

[GIMH]

Yeah, agree with the general theory, but you could never remove birth from the eligibility picture. I think it's right that players can qualify for a nation through birth alone.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Brumby can you explain that nephew rule a bit, I'm struggling with it.

Ok.

Imagine you were born in Australia (horrific thought, I know, but stay with me). Let's then have two different scenarios:

1) You and your younger brother move to the Wirral at three and four. You become a international cricket and your kid bro becomes an accountant (say). Assuming your brother doesn't emigrate abroad for work his son (your nephew) will be English, so by the nephew rule in this scenario you're English;

2) You and your brother are raised in Wagga Wagga and you, taking advantage of your UK passport, move to England independently of your folks at 19 to play for Lancashire. Here, your non-migratory bro has stayed in Oz so his son (your nephew) will be Australian, so in the second scernario you're Australian.

Any clearer?