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Eoin Morgan

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
It isn't xenophobia on my part (I hope), I'm as proud a Pom as the next man and, with my heritage, I'm certainly not going to knock any Irishmen coming to England to work.

I don't think yer Smiths, Nashs, Patels, Pietersens, Robin Singhs etc are strictly comparable tho. They've all moved from one test nation to another for whatever reason. By us selecting Morgan (or Joyce or Amjad) we're effecitvely punishing associates for producing quality players. I suspect other countries would do the same if they had the chance too, so it's more of a systemic failure.

My compromise suggestion is letting associate players remain available for their home nations in ODIs & T20Is, whilst being eligible for England (or any other test nation with the appropriate residential qualification satisfied) for tests. It's not ideal, but it is workable.
Agree with you in theory, but is it really workable? we all know that Test & ODI selection should be separate schools of thought but that they aren't. If Morgan was playing ODIs for Ireland, would this restrict his Test chances? Yes, IMO.
 

oitoitoi

State Vice-Captain
He would now, but when he came over to the UK and started at Notts he wasn't one of the best batsmen in the world.
The fact he was dropped from the Natal side, due to quota or other reasons, was part of the reason he sought out moving to the UK.
I'm not too sure he would get in easily now, remember it's always a lot more difficult to knock out an incumbent player than it is to keep your place. The SA test line up is very strong and with everyone performing it's hard to see how anyone could lose their spot (except Mckenzie, maybe Amla but that would be harsh, but KP's never going to be a test opener, probably not a no.3 either), it took an injury and probably the innings of his career for Duminy to get Prince's spot. I imagine KP would have been carrying the drinks for quite some time before getting a chance.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Agree with you in theory, but is it really workable? we all know that Test & ODI selection should be separate schools of thought but that they aren't. If Morgan was playing ODIs for Ireland, would this restrict his Test chances? Yes, IMO.
It may do, yes. &, with that knowledge, he may chose to throw his lot in with us hook, line and sinker anyway.

It would be nice if they had the chance still tho.

Warming to the subject slightly, were any Sri Lankans ever selected for India (or, less likely, Pakistan) before they got test status? Given the depth of talent in the island I struggle to believe not a player of test quality was produced. Quite a few Rhodesians played for SA pre-Aparthied ban (Bland, Duckworth & Traicos off top of my head).
 

oitoitoi

State Vice-Captain
Back to the issue at hand my overriding instinct is that it's just not cricket, I know each time I see him play at the back of my mind I'll be thinking he should be playing for Ireland. This is worse than Pietersen or any of the others because he's actually represented Ireland a lot in a format for which he's now been chosen for Enlgand. It seems like England are getting him with 0 investment and a huge cost to Irish cricket.
 

Jarquis

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I'm not too sure he would get in easily now, remember it's always a lot more difficult to knock out an incumbent player than it is to keep your place. The SA test line up is very strong and with everyone performing it's hard to see how anyone could lose their spot (except Mckenzie, maybe Amla but that would be harsh, but KP's never going to be a test opener, probably not a no.3 either), it took an injury and probably the innings of his career for Duminy to get Prince's spot. I imagine KP would have been carrying the drinks for quite some time before getting a chance.
The point being that Pietersen is now one of the worlds greatest batsmen and IMO is easily good enough to play for South Africa.
However, the point Rivera made was that Pietersen's case was different to Morgan's because Pietersen would easily make SA's test side, however, in the context he was making that point it was irrelevant as Pietersen left at a time when he was a "good county player" not the outstanding batsman he is today.

Also the Mckenzie was dropped in the last test SA played.
Khaan opened?
He could give way with Amla opening and Pietersen batting 3?
 

oitoitoi

State Vice-Captain
It may do, yes. &, with that knowledge, he may chose to throw his lot in with us hook, line and sinker anyway.

It would be nice if they had the chance still tho.

Warming to the subject slightly, were any Sri Lankans ever selected for India (or, less likely, Pakistan) before they got test status? Given the depth of talent in the island I struggle to believe not a player of test quality was produced. Quite a few Rhodesians played for SA pre-Aparthied ban (Bland, Duckworth & Traicos off top of my head).
Pretty certain no Lankans or Pakistanis were ever picked, though back then they were loathe to pick chennai players never mind Sri Lankans.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Pretty certain no Lankans or Pakistanis were ever picked, though back then they were loathe to pick chennai players never mind Sri Lankans.
A few Pakistanis played for pre-partition India and later played for Pakistan too: Abdul Kardar, Jenni Irani & Amir Elahi. I meant had any Sri Lankans played for Pakistan or India.
 

James_W

U19 Vice-Captain
It isn't xenophobia on my part (I hope), I'm as proud a Pom as the next man and, with my heritage, I'm certainly not going to knock any Irishmen coming to England to work.

I don't think yer Smiths, Nashs, Patels, Pietersens, Robin Singhs etc are strictly comparable tho. They've all moved from one test nation to another for whatever reason. By us selecting Morgan (or Joyce or Amjad) we're effecitvely punishing associates for producing quality players. I suspect other countries would do the same if they had the chance too, so it's more of a systemic failure.

My compromise suggestion is letting associate players remain available for their home nations in ODIs & T20Is, whilst being eligible for England (or any other test nation with the appropriate residential qualification satisfied) for tests. It's not ideal, but it is workable.
This is a great point. Nash went to Windies because he wasn't good enough for Australia. Elliot went to NZ because he wasn't good enough for South Africa. Pietersen came to England because at the time, he couldn't get a game due to quotas or perhaps not being good enough back then or whatever the reason is. They weren't being 'stolen' because their own countries didn't want them. Joyce, Amjad and Morgan are the best their countries have, and that is the key point that needs to be made. How can cricket truly globalise if associate players are nabbed by the already test playing teams like this? I know it's the players choice etc. but Morgan should definately have to wait 4 years from his last ODI until he qualifies for England. Essentialy, at the moment, he is qualified to play for both England and Ireland which is just weird. He's in the squad for the World T20, what if England don't play him? Does that mean Ireland can borrow him from their squad for a match? Is he eligible to play for two teams in the same tournament? :blink: It's just a bit weird IMO.

With Joyce though, it was different, he never played an ODI for Ireland so I can understand him being qualified for England straight away.
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
My compromise suggestion is letting associate players remain available for their home nations in ODIs & T20Is, whilst being eligible for England (or any other test nation with the appropriate residential qualification satisfied) for tests. It's not ideal, but it is workable.
Very interesting idea. I like it.
 

James_W

U19 Vice-Captain
Some interesting arguments on here. What's clear is that Morgan sees himself as a Middlesex player first and an Ireland player second - they pay his wages after all (like RTD at Essex), so qualifying for England is the logical progression. I dare say that if there were a Namibian player good enough to play for South Africa, or a Papuan good enough for Australia, they'd do likewise. And I'd have more sympathy for Ireland if they hadn't recruited half their squad from southern hemisphere countries. If I have any objection to Morgan, it's just that I don't think he's a particularly good player, but if he wants to take the risk (and Ed Joyce can tell him about that), then good luck to him. Incidentally, will Joyce re-qualify for Ireland in time for the next World Cup? I have a feeling it'll be just too soon under the four year rule.
My point here is that these players would be nowhere near selection for their own sides, so Ireland are not hampering another country's chances of success. It's not really to do with a sense of national identity, although it would be nice to see an Irish-raised majority. I believe a good example can be taken from football at the moment, where Fabio Cappello has said he would be happy to select Manuel Almunia, a Spaniard, as he is good enough to play for England. Spain don't want him, they have Casillas, Reina, Valdez etc so there is nothing wrong with England taking him IMO. Same with Nacho Novo and Scotland, although no one in Scotland wants him, but yeah, it's the same situation.
 

oitoitoi

State Vice-Captain
Imagine if this happened in another sport? For example football where there aren't lots of different formats creating barriers, a player who plays for Ireland (e.g. Roy Keane if he had claimed British citizenship) then get's picked for England (I reckon he was certainly good enough) who decide they want him, Keane will get paid 500% of what he gets paid for representing Ireland so he plays for England instead. Or perhaps the Irish side isn't any good and won't qualify for the world cup while England will so he chooses England. How do you think that would be received? Is this really any different?
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Think we'd have bitten Keane's hand off had he offered to join our midfield tbh :p
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I've said it a good few times but those to blame for this are those who insist Ireland and England (and Scotland) be separate cricket teams.

For a century every Scotsman and Irishman who got good at cricket played in (and if they were really good, for) England-and-Wales, and this was viewed as completely natural and right. Now, because ICC want to create the illusion of expansion, Ireland and Scotland are termed different.

It has always been the way that the British Isles has been a united cricket team and it's not going to be easy for anyone to stop that. Personally I hope anyone who tries falls flat on their face, because I'd be happiest with all British and Irish players playing under one flag. Right now that's idealist, but who knows what's going to happen in 20 years' time?
 

James_W

U19 Vice-Captain
Imagine if this happened in another sport? For example football where there aren't lots of different formats creating barriers, a player who plays for Ireland (e.g. Roy Keane if he had claimed British citizenship) then get's picked for England (I reckon he was certainly good enough) who decide they want him, Keane will get paid 500% of what he gets paid for representing Ireland so he plays for England instead. Or perhaps the Irish side isn't any good and won't qualify for the world cup while England will so he chooses England. How do you think that would be received? Is this really any different?
Only reason it's different is because Keane would never, ever, ever, ever play for England.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Think we'd have bitten Keane's hand off had he offered to join our midfield tbh :p
Indeed so. If we're prepared to swipe Hargreaves I guess we'd have found a spot for Royston.

He'd have doubtless told us to "shove it up your bollocks" in his quaint, anatomically-challenged way.
 

James_W

U19 Vice-Captain
Which flag would they play under? :p
'The United Kingdom of Great Britian and Northern Ireland as well as Republic of Ireland (also includes Scotland and Wales)'

The kit would be blue, white, red, light green, dark green, orange with the badge being a lion and dragon with ginger hair and kilts eating haggis and spuds while drinking guinness.
 

oitoitoi

State Vice-Captain
Only reason it's different is because Keane would never, ever, ever, ever play for England.
Well fine use a different example, Giggs perhaps (went to my old school for a year or two that man)? There probably wouldn't be as strong a feeling because let's face it, there aren't too many Welsh people. But if he had already been representing Wales for years then decided he wanted a taste of the biggest stage and played for England, surely it wouldn't seem right?
 

oitoitoi

State Vice-Captain
'The United Kingdom of Great Britian and Northern Ireland as well as Republic of Ireland (also includes Scotland and Wales)'

The kit would be blue, white, red, light green, dark green, orange with the badge being a lion and dragon with ginger hair and kilts eating haggis and spuds while drinking guinness.
I'd buy that strip.
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
My compromise suggestion is letting associate players remain available for their home nations in ODIs & T20Is, whilst being eligible for England (or any other test nation with the appropriate residential qualification satisfied) for tests. It's not ideal, but it is workable.
I said the same thing a couple of weeks back.

It's a nonsense that an Irish born player will be ineligible for Ireland for 4 years once he's selected for England.

What happens if after a year England decide that Morgan isn't particularly good after all, and discard him from their future plans? Ireland are deprived of arguably their top talent, and Morgan is denied the opportunity to play at World Cups and in ODIs vs top sides - and that's not an ideal solution at all.

Associate players in my opinion should always be eligible for their country of birth, however if they qualify and play for another country, then that country should have first option on them.
 

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