CW50 2nd Edition - No 05

[smash84]

Agreed with Murali, but disagree oh so much with the point about Akram. Wrist spinners and leg-spinners are just so far removed and different in style and what they bring to a bowling line up than just a left-arm seamer instead of a right-arm seamer.
And the bolded part is my whole point... not just australia, i just cant see world cricket producing a leg spinner like Warne soon. But i can definitely see a number of batsmen down the line who might be considered by some to be as good as tendulkar

I mean,history attests to this. How many truly ATG spinners can you think of? 3? 4? Across a hundred years of test cricket for gods sake! Great seamers, and batsmen imo are incredible in their own way, but you usually get 5-6 every generation. but ATG spinners are ridiculously rare, which something you cannot disagree with

other than akram or davidson i can't think of atg left armers either

 

[Satguru]

other than akram or davidson i can't think of atg left armers either

As i said before, left arm-seamers arent rare for the same reason as leg-spinners.... youre born left handed or right handed... for some, left-arm bowling comes naturally... ATG leg-spinners are rare because it is arguably the most difficult form of bowling to master.

And its not as if left-arm seam bowling is a completely different art when compared to right-arm... leg-spin bowling is

 

[smash84]

but isn't the objective wicket taking?

By your logic had Paul Adams been a bit more successful he would have been talked about the whole of next century?

 

[Spark]

His point is that leg-spin is a stunningly difficult art to master, moreso than fast bowling etc.

 

[Satguru]

but isn't the objective wicket taking?

By your logic had Paul Adams been a bit more successful he would have been talked about the whole of next century?

Well, obviously... if he had taken 700 test wickets, then yeah, he would probably be just as talked about as Warne... but he didnt

 

[silentstriker]

His point is that leg-spin is a stunningly difficult art to master, moreso than fast bowling etc.

Bowling like this:

is even more difficult. I am not sure if it should get him extra points just because he picked a method of bowling that is harder to master in order to get him the same results.

 

[smash84]

exactly

 

[Satguru]

that is missing the point completely... if Paul Adams had actually had a great career, then he would be rightly just as talked about as Warne imo... probably a bit less cause hes a saffie

 

[Ikki]

Smali does bring up an interesting point though; there seem to be many more ATG right handers than lefties. Is this a technical/tactical thing which hinders them because there might be more right handed batsmen, for example, or because of the trajectory to their bowling? Not sure.

 

[Cevno]

His point is that leg-spin is a stunningly difficult art to master, moreso than fast bowling etc.

Yes it is, but then what Paul Adams did was more difficult. The ultimate aim is to take wickets, how you take them certainly contributes in terms of uniqueness but then being a leg spinner is not something unheard of in the past and will certainly not be in the future.

Will Kumble by the same logic be talked about more than say a similar rated off spinner or is O'reily talked about more than Verity ?

 

[Satguru]

Smali does bring up an interesting point though; there seem to be many more ATG right handers than lefties. Is this a technical/tactical thing which hinders them because there might be more right handed batsmen, for example, or because of the trajectory to their bowling? Not sure.

err, thats irrelevant... left handers are generally fare fewer in number than right handers, be it any sport, be it any general activity. Doesnt have any real importance here imo...

 

[Ikki]

Yeh, I guess. FTR there have been 1852 right arm bowlers and 373 left arm bowlers in Test cricket.

 

[Spark]

Yes it is, but then what Paul Adams did was more difficult. The ultimate aim is to take wickets, how you take them certainly contributes in terms of uniqueness but then being a leg spinner is not something unheard of in the past and will certainly not be in the future.

Will Kumble by the same logic be talked about more than say a similar rated off spinner or is O'reily talked about more than Verity ?

Yeah but Paul Adams was ****.

I get your point, but it is worth noting that it is extremely rare to get an ATG spinner relative to the number of spinners around in general, which is why those who did reach that status tend to be cherished even moreso. A similar thing happens with fast bowlers, actually - just see people talk about how rare it is to find a genuinely good or great quick, and hence how special bowlers like Steyn are or bowlers like Pattinson/Philander could be.

 

[ankitj]

Well, obviously... if he had taken 700 test wickets, then yeah, he would probably be just as talked about as Warne... but he didnt

So taking 700 wickets is what matters. That's what Cevno and Smali are trying to say.

 

[silentstriker]

Yeah but Paul Adams was ****.

I get your point, but it is worth noting that it is extremely rare to get an ATG spinner relative to the number of spinners around in general, which is why those who did reach that status tend to be cherished even moreso. A similar thing happens with fast bowlers, actually - just see people talk about how rare it is to find a genuinely good or great quick, and hence how special bowlers like Steyn are or bowlers like Pattinson/Philander could be.

No, I agree with you. I'm just saying (and I'm of the opinion that you don't really pick a spinner over a fast bowler that would take wickets at a lower average) that in the end, even if it is harder, it is not necessarily mean that the person should be rated higher.

But that's my opinion on how they should be rated obvs, people can differ on that.

 

[silentstriker]

Yeh, I guess. FTR there have been 1852 right arm bowlers and 373 left arm bowlers in Test cricket.

That's very interesting. Approximately 10% of the population is left handed I think, and 373/2275 is about 16% - so left armers are over represented. Which may make sense, since batsmen are less used to right armers, left armers might have an inherent advantage over right armers of the 'same skill'.

 

[Satguru]

So taking 700 wickets is what matters. That's what Cevno and Smali are trying to say.

Huh? ofcourse taking bucketloads of wickets matters... what are you trying to say?
Warne is the only leg spinner to consistently bamboozle players throughout his career and take 700 wickets... if paul adams had performed at that ATG level, he would also be in the elite company of Warne, Murali. Fact is, he was a **** bowler. I just dont understand how Paul Adams fits into the equation here at all, tbh.

No spinner apart from Murali, Warne, Oreilley has bowled at ATG level for any stretch of their careers, which is what makes them special... Warne, and to a lesser extent Oreilly in the discipline of legspin and Murali as a wrist spinner... no one comes close in 100+ years of test history...
unlike the debate about the greatest quick bowler where you have around 10-15 great candidates, or the best batsman after bradman, for which around dozen batsman can make a solid claim

 

[kyear2]

The real point is that Warne, Murali and O'Reilly are really the only truely ATG spinners in history, and with O'Reilly playing 27 tests and the caveats againts Murali, firmly places Warne at the top of the spin and in particular the leg spin pack, he was a match winner and he had the charisma. Tendulkar is an ATG batsman and arguably top five all time , but so is Chappell, Ponting, Kallis, Richards, Pollock, Headley, Weeks, Sobers, Richards, Lara, Hobbs, Hutton, Sutcliffe, Hammond, Compton, Dravid, Gavaskar and Miandad. Tendy is probably better that some of them but the distance between them is small and some are his equals, Warne is his disipline has no equals and to paraphrase there is more likely to be another Tendulkar than another Warne.

 

[uvelocity]

Yeh, I guess. FTR there have been 1852 right arm bowlers and 373 left arm bowlers in Test cricket.

quite a few of those right arm bowlers bat left handed, 2188 RHB and 487 LHB. I've never known anyone right handed that bowls or throws left handed, but often rightys will stand on the wrong side of the bat.

 

[smash84]

Ijaz Ahmed